Greece?

[mushroom25]

well the fiscal deadline came and went, and nothing happened.

Greece didn't pay, and Mr Tsipras is still negotiating with his creditors.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33345219

I guess the world waits now for the referendum - although I'm not entirely sure what it's for or what it will achieve.

What's next?

[elgreco]

I live in Greece for 6 months of the year. It does not take an economic genius to understand the main problem here. The Government is broke. The reason it is broke is the fact that people object to paying any sort of taxes. At least fifty per cent of the restaurants and bars that we frequent still give written receipts instead of till receipts. VAT is added but is never paid as tax, straight to the back pocket. Nice cars, BMW, Mercedes etc driving without plates, therefore no road tax or insurance. An idle corrupt police force who refuses to prosecute people because they are cousins, friends or pass an envelope. I have no problem with this mentality, but nations cannot have it both ways. You either want to be European or behave like a third world country. To be a civilised country, someone has to pick up the tab. Normally it is its own people.

[bazwillrun]

"To be a civilised country, someone has to pick up the tab. Normally it is its own people. "

but the greatest tab of all will be the one the eussr will always have open on them and any other countries it dominates in its empire.
it will be ongoing and ever increasing to pay for their political ideals that they want to see in their empire...do the greeks really want to give up their country ?...i wonder how many of them actually understand and have thought through what it means to be in the clutches of eussr and all the implications.

I havent a clue on how it was sold to them, i imagine it was all lies, same as here in the uk..but one thing they can be sure of , stay in and its goodbye greece...

[elgreco]

It's not rocket science. You borrow money, then you pay it back. Since joining the Euro and receiving huge subsidies, I have seen farmers who before had not got two coins to rub together suddenly drive new tractors and own Mercedes compressor cars. These farmers produce tax returns saying their income is below taxable levels. I think you need to see the reality before going on about some European super state. That's my view anyway.

[sevenOP]

New Judge>//"They" are who I term the "Euromaniacs". Collectively the individuals and institutions who are determined to see the EU as a single nation state (which is usually known as "the European Project" – not my term) and will pursue that aim regardless of the consequences for the individual nations or the 500m or so people who live in them. //

Clear as mud New Judge - no names, no specific actions just the broad sweep of "Euromaniacs" and "who are determined to see the EU as a single nation state"

Yes you are unlikely to know what I meant by mitigate for it was meant to hint at 'putting the other side of the argument' 'two sides to every story' = mitigating circumstances, but they had already been judged "complicit" by you.

Maybe bazwillrun can provide greater clarity to who "they" were and what "they" did?

[ichkeria]

Elgreco is dead right
And explains perfectly why Greece was a poor candidate for the euro
Slowly Syriza is caving in as it was always likely they would
They will at they end of their time in government have done nothing to ease their country's economic plight
Only made it worse

[New Judge]

There are hundreds, if not thousands of them SevenOP. Far too many to name individually. Among the principle contenders of the current bunch are, of course, Jean-Claude Juncker (current president of the entire shambles) and all the EU Commissioners. I think their stated aim of wanting a single European State (which none of them deny as they crave for “ever closer union”) is simple enough to understand and much of what they do is dedicated to that aim. It is the biggest single objection I have to the EU.

By the way, as you may imagine, I’m perfectly aware of what it means to “mitigate” and it has nothing to do with “'putting the other side of the argument' or 'two sides to every story'”. It means to lessen in force, to make less severe or milder. Hence my having no idea what you were on about. Being more anti-EU than just about anybody including Nigel Farage I would not, of course, put the other side of the EU argument. That’s the job of the Euromaniacs.

[DTCwordfan]

the issue is Greece, 320 billion Euros of debt on 11 million people is not sustainable......what is the cost for the EU to keeping the Putinists from having their long-cherished access to the Med in the form of a naval base, air base or both?

Nous allons voir.

[jourdain2]

Thank you DTC for saying what I think. I am so sorry for the ordinary Greeks though.

[ichkeria]

I think the Putin aspect is a bit of a red herring. Russia is a basket case capable of causing mayhem to its near abroad but it is slowly going down the pan
You should not underestimate the desire of the Greek people as a whole to be seen as Western. Syriza's party have links notably with people like Alexander Dugin, a sort of cross between nationalist nutcase Vladimir Zhirinovsky and Rasputin. But Syriza is an aberration, elected due to the understandable frustration of the Greek people with their plight. I cannot see them surviving long

[sevenOP]

There are indeed a multitude of actors, but a much smaller group of directors New Judge, and financier J-C Juncker and Luxumbourg are complicit, but your anti-EU bias appears to blind you to the biggest culprit and some major players, and why the game is being played. You are fixated on the 'European Project', which indeed is one Plan, but in a far larger game.

Anyway from what you said previously, you probably realise that those desirous of the 'European Project' coming to fruition will do all they can to keep Greece in their clutches, a crushed, punished example and warning, removing the threat of Spain, Italy, etc escaping their doses of austerity by using the exit door, and that also suits international financial interests, Capitalism, oligarchs and the rentier class.

Syriza must be crushed and humbled to quell Podemos and any Italian communist upstarts.(and remember the weak southern European economies kept the value of euro low, a boon for German exports.)

Most of the 'bailout money' went to French and German banks and to enable American banks to make a killing as they had bought bonds at 30 cents on the dollar and suddenly they went up to 100 cents to the dollar.


It is a finances war in Greece with land and tribute as the goals.
Greek oligarchs have used the banks to avoid tax - which must be changed, and remember the corruption went to the top layers of government - Christine Lagarde,managing director of IMF gave a list of Greek tax evaders with over €50 billion in Switzerland to the Greek government and the technocratic, banker puppet Prime Minister that the financial interests had installed,Lucas Papademos refused to move against the oligarchs - corruption and treason.

Maybe bazwillrun will provide greater clarity to who "they" were and what "they" did for our edification.

[askyourgran]

The wheels grind exceedingly slow, grow a bent cucumber and they'll be on your case before you say referendum.

[New Judge]

All of what you say is very true, SevenOP. But the plain fact of the matter is that if the EU did not exist today nobody would think of inventing it. It is precisely because of the existence of that wrethched organisation that the tentacles of which you speak are able to reach out across the Continent. It was obvious from day one that having achieved the aim of a single currency (though not quite so single as "they" really desire) then control of individual nations' affairs would be that much simpler. That's what the European Project is all about - control of nation states and it's been singularly well achieved in the case of the eurozone nations for none of them dare step out of line.

[Zacs-Master]

"and it's been singularly well achieved in the case of the eurozone nations for none of them dare step out of line."

I'd say what Greece is doing is pretty 'out of line'.

[sevenOP]

It seems unlikely bazwllrun any explanations here New Judge, so I will run thee major culprits of the Greek debacle:

Wall St with prominent players JP Morgan Chase and Goldman Sachs...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/business/global/14debt.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/25/business/global/25swaps.html

The Greek 'Authorities' - those complicit in the 'Negotiations' - the puppet technocrat installed by the financial interests, Lucas Papademos, was the very man who had falsified all the payments and debt statements in 2001.
http://charleshughsmith.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/the-catastrophic-costs-of-extend-and.html


The Securities Exchange Commission aka The Stock Market Regulators - FINRA, CFTC, NFA blah blah positive deniability BLAH

New Judge, you surely know the alleged geopolitical reasons for the 'Common Market', so unless you think 'Globalisation' would not have happened and the international financial cabal would then not have *gained* such prominence, which is extremely naive , then your single minded, single cause fixation is self limiting.

[New Judge]

So basically, then, all the fault of the wicked bankers, SevenOP.

"I'd say what Greece is doing is pretty 'out of line'. "

Quite so, Zacs. And look what's going to happen to them. They will either be drummed out of the club or, if they remain, they will have to knuckle down and do as they are told.

[Khandro]

I think elgreco sums it up well, and the poor pensioners we see every night on the box are in dire straits BUT don't forget many of them have played the game and lived well of EU taxpayers for a long time.
An example of how it has worked is this: you own a few lemon trees on some scrubby bit of land and in cahoots with some official and with a brown envelope get yourself registered as a small farmer and therefore eligible for subsidies, you apply for a grant for a tractor which is granted, but the tractor seller also sells Porsche Cayennes, so with a bit of shuffling of papers and more brown envelopes you end up with a Cayenne, generous subsidies, an early pension, and more or less nothing to do except sit around in the sunshine with your mates and fidget beads, which is all you did in the first place when you were poor.
Yes, the EU is a wonderful institution.

[sevenOP]

I never said that New Judge: politicians, the entire 'stoke market' -sic- system, all those entities involved in the Greek debacle -(an encompassing number of the 'political class' included), the banks, and numerous international financial institutions and cartels... and others, but I only gave the main culprits.

At least rather more specific than your lack of detail.

[zebo]

Does anyone know how many countries in the EU zone actually met the initial conditions set for joining the Euro? I doubt it would be a long list, the introduction of the Euro was going to go ahead whatever their suitability because the big players wanted it.