Moderate Muslims

[birdie1971]

Are the 'moderate' muslims in the UK aware that they will be crushed and treated as apostates if their dream of an islamic UK state were ever to become a reality?

In my opinion, islam is very much like communism. The standard bearers of both like to espouse the virtues of their particular political / religious ideology, knowing full well that many people will be slaughtered as a result. The ones doing the espousing always justify their belief by convincing themselves that they will be the ones who make up the ruling elite of such an ideology. It never seems to occur to these zealots and bigots that they will be eaten by their own.

Do the westernised, moderate muslims truly think that they will be spared the wrath of political islam?

[naomi24]

Khandro, the beliefs he holds and shares with those who think as he does adversely affect others - but since you don't want to know about that I'm surprised you're asking.

[wildwood]

Keyplus90 last friday //So why don’t you tell me that why do you believe that homosexual acts are so important for you that for this very reason you would like someone to leave their religion? Could it be,
1 – That you are homosexual yourself?
2 – That you have had bad experience from Islam (Muslims obviously), and the other religion in this regard.
3 – That you believe it is very normal natural way of life?
4 – Or any other reason.
Let’s hear your side of the story. //

1. No
2. No
3. No
4. homosexuality is just a sex hormones imbalance which, once established early in life, will already have made permanent alterations to a person's mental and/or physical state. It is not something that can be fixed so it is no use punishing a person for their sexual preference. Any and every religion which regards homosexuality as a crime is wrong, and Islam is famous for the barbaric treatment/murder of them. This alone should warn a person that those teachings are wrong and inhuman.

[bainbrig]

Old Geezer: yes, agreed, but given the limited independence of thought and action that our upbringing allow us, we really do have some freedom. Sartre’s Roads to Freedom explores this, and I suppose concludes that we should do our best ‘in good faith’, as limited as this best might be.

BillB

[naomi24]

bainbrig, you appear to have ignored my post at 07:47, so I’ll put it in simpler terms. Do you know what Keyplus believes?

[vulcan42]

bainbrig, to "fight to defend any unreasoned slur against any religion" is a much deeper conviction than "I believe all people have the right to think and believe what they like, as long as it doesn’t adversely affect others. "

[Old_Geezer]

Why would one defend a slur ?
Never mind, it's just a rhetorical question.

Was hoping Roads to Freedom would be a philosophical discourse. Looks like it's French fiction. Ah well.

[bainbrig]

Old Geezer. It IS a philosophical discourse, just in the guise of a trilogy of stories, stories of one bloke’s journey through life... and the choices he makes. If you want pure philosophy, try L’etre et le neant, although I never got past page une.

BB

Naomi et al: no, I’m not here to join your games, just to support a fellow free-thinker!

[naomi24]

bainbrig, You ‘salute [Keyplus] in the face of unreason’ and yet you don’t know what he believes and therefore have no idea if the ‘face’ is unreasonable or not. As for Keyplus being a ‘free-thinker’ that has to be a joke. I can only conclude that either logic isn’t your forte – or you’re on a wind-up.

[bainbrig]

Old Geezer. Sorry, I was busy (ho ho).

Well, defining 'slur' as "an insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation" means that an example could be 'UKIP are a bunch of fascists', which most would think a reasoned slur.

An unreasoned slur might be 'Da'esh are Muslims, and are lunatics, therefore all Muslims are lunatics'...

If you get my drift.

BB

[vetuste_ennemi]

//I can only conclude that either logic isn’t your forte – or you’re on a wind-up.//

The evidence to date suggests both are true.

[naomi24]

v_e, Indeed.

[Khandro]

naomi; I find it distasteful to talk about someone in the third person like this, but you will keep up these slurs and innuendos.
Are you attacking the man or his religious orientation? If it is the latter then you should declare so.

[naomi24]

Khandro, ‘slurs and innuendos’ suggests deceit. Not guilty, and no points to you for a poor try. Why is it when you can’t win by fair means you resort to foul? Coming from an intelligent man that’s poor form, you know, and I have to say, disappointing. That said, if you find the discussion here distasteful may I suggest you address your next query about Keyplus to him rather than to me? He’s participating in this thread, as you are, and in my experience if he’s aggrieved he’ll say so. He's never come across as the shy, retiring, type.

To answer your question, I don’t know the man.

[naomi24]

Incidentally Khandro, check out the post at 11:53 Thursday and tell me if your complaint applies equally there.

[Old_Geezer]

Ah thanks. I shall endeavor to read Being and Nothingness, but these days, good reading intentions don't always work out, as the pile of yet to read books next to the bed confirms.

[keyplus90]

Vetuste – Your story can be refuted very easily and in reality I can give 10 different stories here about incidents where people Insulted Muhammad (pbuh) and he not only forgave them but also gave them favors. I can see that your story is from a well known anti-Islam Christian website known as Answering Islam. But it has already be refuted on a website known as Answering Christianity. But as I said I will leave it for you to believe in it as whatever I will give here or say, you would not accept that as you already know what you want to know or here or even believe. So good luck.

OG – Talked about Free Will. The concept of free will is a bit difficult for a few to understand or digest. Say for example you go on a drive and someone tells you that do not drive faster than 70 miles on the motorway otherwise you would be punished with fine. Now that person says that I don’t believe in it and I know that nothing would happen. He drives how he feels like, driving fast and over the limit. Next day he receives a fine for driving over the speed limit. Now in my mind he had a warning which he did not take serious and decided to use he Free Will and drove fast and now the fine is the price he is paying for using his free will. Exactly the same time there is another driver who’s vehicle is fitted with a speed limiter to 65 Miles /hr. He has no free will as he can’t go over the limit anyway. However there is a third person abides by the law and decides to stay within the limit. Although he too had a free will and could have gone either way but decided to make the right choice. Now can first person blame the law maker for the fine he was punished with?

Wildwood – I don’t agree with your reason about how a person has hormonal imbalance and becomes a homosexual. If that is the case then in recent years this imbalance is becoming more and more widespread. Does not matter what we believe but sexual relation in nature is between male and female and is for the reason to give birth to one’s next generation. Health dangers of homosexuality is all well known. However I will not go into that. Islam does not interfere into one’s personal life as long as it is kept personal as in that case it is the matter between that person and the creator whether or not he believes in one. However Islam is against homosexuality or even sexual relation between a man and a woman if they are not married but Islamic punishment is only applicable when that are caught in a way that at least 4 people see them (eye witnesses). Only then in an Islamic country a punishment can be given through a proper court system. Now a punishment in Islamic system (Sharia) cannot be given to someone who is not Muslim. Yes, Sharia does not apply to None Muslims. Now it’s a long debate it it is right or wrong as a religious doctrine should not change when people want to change it as people may think one thing today and another tomorrow. I can’t say more than this.

Finally, I can see that if someone has spoken good about me then it is difficult for a few to digest. That only means one thing. I must be knocking on their door a bit too hard.

[nailit]

//Now can first person blame the law maker for the fine he was punished with?//
Well I certainly would, if that 'fine' was eternal torture....sick!

[nailit]

//Does not matter what we believe but sexual relation in nature is between male and female //
Not necessarily so. There are over 600 species of animals (so far) recorded that exhibit homosexual behaviour...including lions and higher primates. Your wrong on so many levels. And NO I'm not homosexual myself.

[vulcan42]

"That only means one thing. I must be knocking on their door a bit too hard."
keyplus, you delude yourself.

[Togo]

// Yes, Sharia does not apply to None Muslims.//

Does a fatwa?