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Moderate Muslims
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Are the 'moderate' muslims in the UK aware that they will be crushed and treated as apostates if their dream of an islamic UK state were ever to become a reality?
In my opinion, islam is very much like communism. The standard bearers of both like to espouse the virtues of their particular political / religious ideology, knowing full well that many people will be slaughtered as a result. The ones doing the espousing always justify their belief by convincing themselves that they will be the ones who make up the ruling elite of such an ideology. It never seems to occur to these zealots and bigots that they will be eaten by their own.
Do the westernised, moderate muslims truly think that they will be spared the wrath of political islam?
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Khandro, my responses aren’t cut and paste – if they were I'd add an acknowledgement. The record of Muhammed‘s marriage to a six year old is, for reasons that are obvious to anyone who has taken the trouble to investigate just a little, not to be found in the Koran. Your own link confirms that the marriage is a matter of record – and I would love Keyplus to respond. His view on the subject of marrying little girls to old men is also a matter of record. I really don’t understand why you’re attempting to argue this. Islam is a 7th century philosophy that continues to this day. It cannot change because change would mean recognition of previous error – and since both the Koran and Mohammed are deemed to be without fault and, hence, beyond criticism (Charlie Hebdo ring any bells?), the world is, unfortunately, stuck with Islam. Islam is what it is. Make no mistake about that. Perhaps it’s time to stop revelling in your airy fairy philosophers and look reality in the face – and don’t take Karen Armstrong as ‘gospel’. As a researcher she is excellent, and her books are eminently readable, but she does have a habit that surfaces just occasionally of allowing her admiration of religion to displace reality.
Ladybirder, you're welcome - and thank you. Hard work here at times!
Ladybirder, you're welcome - and thank you. Hard work here at times!
"In Western countries, dawa aims both to convert non-Muslims to political Islam and to bring about more extreme views among existing Muslims. The ultimate goal of dawa is to destroy the political institutions of a free society and replace them with strict sharia."
Ayaan Hirsi Ali in her book, The Challenge of Dawa: Political Islam as Ideology and Movement and How to Counter It.
//While the West is preoccupied with fighting "hate speech", "Islamophobia" and white supremacist groups, it appears more than willing to ignore the cultivation of Muslim hate speech and supremacist attitudes towards non-Muslims.
It is a cultivation that occurs especially in the process of dawa, the Muslim practice of Islamic outreach or proselytizing//
//"The term 'dawa' refers to activities carried out by Islamists to win adherents and enlist them in a campaign to impose sharia law on all societies. Dawa is not the Islamic equivalent of religious proselytizing, although it is often disguised as such... [It] includes proselytization, but extends beyond that. In Western countries, dawa aims both to convert non-Muslims to political Islam and to bring about more extreme views among existing Muslims. The ultimate goal of dawa is to destroy the political institutions of a free society and replace them with strict sharia."//
//One 2011 undercover video segment from the Darul Ulum Islamic High School in Birmingham, England, associated with the Tablighi Jamaat, showed that Muslim children were taught Muslim supremacy. Eleven year olds were taught that Hindus "have no intellect" and "drink cow ***". The teacher also said, "You are not like the non-Muslims out there... All that evil that you see in the streets... people not wearing Hijab properly, people smoking... you should hate it..." The children were also told:
"You need to free yourself from the influence of the Shaitan [Satan] and of society... The Kuffar [derogatory term for non-Muslims] have brought so many new things out there...They are controlling your minds... Are you part of those who prefer their way of life: The way of the Kuffar over the way of the Prophet?"//
https:/
Ayaan Hirsi Ali in her book, The Challenge of Dawa: Political Islam as Ideology and Movement and How to Counter It.
//While the West is preoccupied with fighting "hate speech", "Islamophobia" and white supremacist groups, it appears more than willing to ignore the cultivation of Muslim hate speech and supremacist attitudes towards non-Muslims.
It is a cultivation that occurs especially in the process of dawa, the Muslim practice of Islamic outreach or proselytizing//
//"The term 'dawa' refers to activities carried out by Islamists to win adherents and enlist them in a campaign to impose sharia law on all societies. Dawa is not the Islamic equivalent of religious proselytizing, although it is often disguised as such... [It] includes proselytization, but extends beyond that. In Western countries, dawa aims both to convert non-Muslims to political Islam and to bring about more extreme views among existing Muslims. The ultimate goal of dawa is to destroy the political institutions of a free society and replace them with strict sharia."//
//One 2011 undercover video segment from the Darul Ulum Islamic High School in Birmingham, England, associated with the Tablighi Jamaat, showed that Muslim children were taught Muslim supremacy. Eleven year olds were taught that Hindus "have no intellect" and "drink cow ***". The teacher also said, "You are not like the non-Muslims out there... All that evil that you see in the streets... people not wearing Hijab properly, people smoking... you should hate it..." The children were also told:
"You need to free yourself from the influence of the Shaitan [Satan] and of society... The Kuffar [derogatory term for non-Muslims] have brought so many new things out there...They are controlling your minds... Are you part of those who prefer their way of life: The way of the Kuffar over the way of the Prophet?"//
https:/
Trying to pass judgement on 6th century mores by using 21st century sensibilities is a fool's game, whether it be looking at Arabian or even European societies; and v_e, simply replacing my one - seemingly to me moderate - interpretor of the Koran, by a more radical, extremist one, doesn't really count for much in this discussion.
I insist, that there is absolutely no evidence in the Koran itself that Mohammad, or anyone else, participated or advocated sexual intercourse with pre-pubescent girls.
I insist, that there is absolutely no evidence in the Koran itself that Mohammad, or anyone else, participated or advocated sexual intercourse with pre-pubescent girls.
naomi; I don't want Islam to be anything, it is what it is, though I believe it badly needs reforming, which is another matter. I am a actually a through and through, Islamaphobe (the 'phobe' part coming from the Greek, 'phobos' = fear) in that I fear that it's political extremist wing wishes to take over "my" Europe and I will fight anyway I can to prevent this, but I have no hatred for Islam, or any of its moderate followers.
Khandro, but you present what you call a ‘more moderate interpreter’ whose interpretation is simply wrong. Additionally, contrary to popular belief (yours included)’ the Koran is not the be all and end all of Islam. It is actually overridden in some instances by other Islamic literature – which is where you’ll find the indisputable record of Mohammed’s marriage to a little girl.
Perhaps this will help clarify the matter for you.
http://
Perhaps this will help clarify the matter for you.
http://
naomi; //... the Koran is not the be all and end all of Islam. It is actually overridden in some instances by other Islamic literature //
You really do talk nonsense, to a Muslim, the Koran is the divine words of God and (unfortunately) cannot be "overridden".
I'm not going to even bother reading your link.
You really do talk nonsense, to a Muslim, the Koran is the divine words of God and (unfortunately) cannot be "overridden".
I'm not going to even bother reading your link.
Khandro – This was the reason I have long decided not to waste time on a few of these known characters here. Because “pixels” have made them scholars of every religion and they believe in none. Verse 64 mentioned in the link you gave is from a chapter called “Tallaq” means divorce and if someone self-claimed so clever like Naomi can’t understand then I have nothing to add. People pick on cooked stories and try comparing life now with what it was like 1400 years ago. What a joke.
Karen Armstrong writes in her book “Muhammad” that majority of the Westerner’s brains are stuck on fictional stories cooked at the times of crusades about Islam and particularly Muhammad (Pbuh). And I see that here. These people just go round and round in circles. I joined AB in 2007 ( I believe) and even today after 10 years same kind of posts and arguments are being presented. Twisted words, fabricated hadis and much more. But in reality Islam is there and is spreading because false stories are only making people to study the religion and accept its truth. Islam is not facing anything new that it has not faced in 1400 years.
Then there are people like Jourdain2, // Then Quran needs changing – Mahdudi’s commentary is sickening///. Makes me laugh that it talks about a person’s commentary and then says Quran need changing. How intelligent.
Karen Armstrong writes in her book “Muhammad” that majority of the Westerner’s brains are stuck on fictional stories cooked at the times of crusades about Islam and particularly Muhammad (Pbuh). And I see that here. These people just go round and round in circles. I joined AB in 2007 ( I believe) and even today after 10 years same kind of posts and arguments are being presented. Twisted words, fabricated hadis and much more. But in reality Islam is there and is spreading because false stories are only making people to study the religion and accept its truth. Islam is not facing anything new that it has not faced in 1400 years.
Then there are people like Jourdain2, // Then Quran needs changing – Mahdudi’s commentary is sickening///. Makes me laugh that it talks about a person’s commentary and then says Quran need changing. How intelligent.
Ah, there you are Keyplus. Jolly good. Yes, we were talking about divorce, and divorce has been mentioned several times, but you seem to have missed that. Now you’re here why don’t you tell Khandro how you would be happy to marry your nine year old daughter off to an older man – or shall I? He doesn’t believe me when I tell him today’s Muslims would do that, or as you say, that Islam hasn’t changed since Mohammed invented it 1400 years ago. I’m sure he’ll believe you.
You see Naomi, its mentality issue with you. You talk about 9 years old but Islam talks about puberty. Once again we have talked about it before. Islam does not have legal age of consent. Because Islam is a natural religion and by nature age of puberty differs region to region. Islam believes in Puberty and THAT IS THE EARLIEST ONE CAN MARRY. However you believe that in Islam someone stands there over a girl and when she has a first menstruation then he just pulls her into bed. In simple words one can’t marry a woman in Islam unless she has reached puberty and the one who has reached puberty is not considered child even by medical profession.
Even now Western or None Muslim countries are far ahead for teenage pregnancies and you do not have problem there, however you have problem with people who marry and have children. But you would not understand that for two reasons, one, that you have a fixed bias brain about Islam and other religions too, and two, because you need common sense to understand all of this . Spain had legal age of consent as 13 until 2009. Japan still has it to 13 years. Now according to you they are paedophiles. Aren’t they? Highest is in Bahrain (a Muslim country), 21 year.
Please try studying Islam and come out of Websites and copy and pastes.
Even now Western or None Muslim countries are far ahead for teenage pregnancies and you do not have problem there, however you have problem with people who marry and have children. But you would not understand that for two reasons, one, that you have a fixed bias brain about Islam and other religions too, and two, because you need common sense to understand all of this . Spain had legal age of consent as 13 until 2009. Japan still has it to 13 years. Now according to you they are paedophiles. Aren’t they? Highest is in Bahrain (a Muslim country), 21 year.
Please try studying Islam and come out of Websites and copy and pastes.
Keyplus, //….Puberty and THAT IS THE EARLIEST ONE CAN MARRY.//
That isn’t true, is it Keyplus – and you know it. Perhaps you’d care to open the link that Khandro refused to open.
http://
//Spain had legal age of consent as 13 until 2009. Japan still has it to 13 years. Now according to you they are paedophiles. Aren’t they?//
No, they are not.
You haven’t answered my question. Will you tell Khandro that you would marry your nine year old daughter to a grown man – or shall I?
//Please try studying Islam and come out of Websites and copy and pastes.//
Oh dear. You’ll have to try harder than that, Keyplus. ;o)
That isn’t true, is it Keyplus – and you know it. Perhaps you’d care to open the link that Khandro refused to open.
http://
//Spain had legal age of consent as 13 until 2009. Japan still has it to 13 years. Now according to you they are paedophiles. Aren’t they?//
No, they are not.
You haven’t answered my question. Will you tell Khandro that you would marry your nine year old daughter to a grown man – or shall I?
//Please try studying Islam and come out of Websites and copy and pastes.//
Oh dear. You’ll have to try harder than that, Keyplus. ;o)
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