Moderate Muslims

[birdie1971]

Are the 'moderate' muslims in the UK aware that they will be crushed and treated as apostates if their dream of an islamic UK state were ever to become a reality?

In my opinion, islam is very much like communism. The standard bearers of both like to espouse the virtues of their particular political / religious ideology, knowing full well that many people will be slaughtered as a result. The ones doing the espousing always justify their belief by convincing themselves that they will be the ones who make up the ruling elite of such an ideology. It never seems to occur to these zealots and bigots that they will be eaten by their own.

Do the westernised, moderate muslims truly think that they will be spared the wrath of political islam?

[vetuste_ennemi]

PS: my facts are verifiable, Wildwood. Secondly you waste your breath expecting honesty from that poster.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, //...why USA & Co are taking too long to attack NK? //

I don't know. Do you want them to attack NK? Perhaps you think that'll take the heat off Islam's less than savoury activities for a bit? Just a thought.

[Khandro]

wildwood to keyplus; " Are you prepared to, here on this forum, publicly denounce the Islamic practice of pedophilism, indiscriminate murder of infidels and Gays, women domination and aggravated violence against those Muslims who do not adhere to the strict Islam beliefs."
By adhering strictly to texts from the Koran, keyplus could refute all of those allegations, just as much as you might be able to substantiate them.

That is the problem, there's something in it for everyone, good and bad.

[keyplus90]

Khandro has almost answered the question put to me. On the other hand why should I (once again) waste my time here explaining Quran, what Quran teaches and what it does not teach or allow, Islamic history to refute Vetuste's points when people have already closed mind about Islam and what I would say about it. //// Wildwood, secondly you waste your breath expecting honesty from that poster///,

So who gives a damn? I don't,

[naomi24]

Khandro, //By adhering strictly to texts from the Koran, keyplus could refute all of those allegations//

But he hasn't - and no surprise there. If you think it's possible why don't you give it a go?

[Khandro]

naomi; keyplus could quote similar arguments to those put forward by Yahya Snow (of whom I hold no particular brief) about the accusations of paedophilia in the Koran, - which was the first item on wildwood's list.
Perhaps you would read through it and comment?

https://yahyasnow.wordpress.com/2009/07/04/does-the-quran-allow-sex-with-immature-girls-no/

[naomi24]

Khandro, The first verse your student quotes does refer to divorce, so she’s right there. She is, however, wrong to claim that it doesn’t condone paedophilia. It does. It specifically refers to //those who have no courses// - in other words pre-pubescent girls. She says //The Prophet Muhammed married an immature girl and waited three years (i.e. waited for her to reach maturity before consummating the marriage, this is documented in the reference section)..// She’s right. Mohammed did marry a six year old and wasn’t averse to kissing and fondling the little girl over the course of the three years before he concummated the marriage when she was just nine years old. Your student deems a nine year old girl ‘mature’, Khandro - and there’s not a good Muslim in the world that would criticise Mohammed for his highly questionable foibles. In fact since Mohammed is deemed beyond criticism emulation is the order of the day. You’ll forgive me if I don’t continue with that lengthy diatribe. Your student is a self-confessed apologist and, as often happens with apologists, knows little about Islam. Why do you bother reading people like that?

[vetuste_ennemi]

I'll see your anonymous Yahya Snow contributor, Khandro, and raise you an Abul A'la Maududi. You may remember Maududi as the scholar and activist who founded the political group Jamaat-i-Islami (some of whose members who set up the Muslim Council of Britain in the 90s) and advised General Zia on the Islamification of the Pakistani constitution. I use his Koranic commentary because he is a modern commentator whose works will probably appear in most Islamic book shops in the UK (certainly in my local one) and, as a Pakistani, probably fairly typical of conservative Islamic thinking in Britain.

This is Yahya Snow on Sura 65:4 which prescribes the conditions for divorcing a wife, including one who has not yet menstruated (stress added by me):

"... it does refer to those who are yet to have their period. The problem here is that the islamophobic critic adds into this verse their own interpretation. They allege that this verse means that Muslims can have sex with pre-pubescent girls (paedophilia)...
...It may fool the one who is unversed with the context and the norms of the time in Arabia....[fathers] would marry off their daughters to older men despite their daughters being immature (i.e. pre-pubescent). The girls would have to wait for maturity (ie puberty) before consummating the marriage... Islam does not allow sex with immature girls."

Now Maududi's commentary on the same verse:

"Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Qur'an the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur'an has held as permissible.".

[jourdain2]

Then the Qu'ran needs changing - Maududi's commentary is sickening.

[naomi24]

v_e, you beat me to it! I’ve just come back to the computer from the kitchen (cooking supper) to say that if anyone is in any doubt about Islam condoning sex with pre-pubescent children, the Koran commands that the waiting period before divorce applies to them too – and the only reason Muslim men are advised to observe a waiting period before divorcing wives is to ensure that the wives are not pregnant. Game, set, and match (so to speak!) on this one, Khandro. Sorry old bean. (No I'm not). ;o)

[vetuste_ennemi]

You've met a few imams up in Bradford, haven't you, Jourdain? What are they like?

[vetuste_ennemi]

The other thing about the Yahya Snow article, Naomi, is that it proves that the apologists will deliberately lie to the Kufar. To echo your point made on another thread, it would be a good thing if people were better educated about just the basic facts of Islamic ideology.

[naomi24]

v_e, //it would be a good thing if people were better educated about just the basic facts of Islamic ideology.//

It would indeed, but it's not easy when so many appear to be suffering from three monkeys syndrome.

I did ask Khandro (on another thread) why, regardless of the flavour of religion, the religiously inclined tend to support others of a similar persuasion, as Khandro appeared to be doing at 12:01 today. I would be very interested in his answer. Khandro?

[jourdain2]

They changed v-e. At first - going back to 70's/early 80's - the 'Community' was willing to fit in and imams were a regular port of call when deep problems happened with pupils. This was Halifax, Sunnis, who were beginning to get concerned about the establishment of the 1st Shia mosque and wanted us on their side.

Then, after a break for c.4 years in Independent schools, I was back
into the maelstrom in Bradford. Inner-city comp., it was good when I started, but how it changed. Suddenly a mention of consulting their imam about behaviour and attitude brought nothing but a defiant sneer and 'He'd make mincemeat of you - if he'd speak to you' (this because I'm female).

We discovered that the new imams were no longer the elders, but newcomers from Saudi Arabia. Islamic flags began to appear (had to be banned), non-uniform days ceased. I did go public with this, but was ignored. Imams were no longer concerned with integration, but separatism. They did not welcome contact.

I cannot comment on what has happened since 2002 and in the last few years, this is just a, very brief, summary of my experience.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Thanks, Jourdain. I do hope your post is read by the many on here who automatically dismiss the opinions of people like Naomi and me.

[naomi24]

Cue the three (and more) monkeys. ;o)

[ladybirder]

I would like to thank Birdie, v_e, Naomi, for this thread. For myself I have read what you have said over the years and have always believed you. I don't get why anyone wouldn't? Frightened perhaps?

[jourdain2]

Probably, ladyb.. It's hard to take on boardl

[Khandro]

keyplus may if he sees fit, retaliate to naomi's and v-e's largely cut and paste attacks, that in the 6th century, within and without the Arab peninsular, where at that time life expectancy was less than 50, that marriage to pre- pubescent females whether they be Jews, Buddhists, Zoroastrians or Christians was the norm. Evidence would suggest that if this happened, the young female was under the protection of the older male until menstruation.
The idea that the Koran states that actual sexual union took place is a fabrication of your minds.

[jourdain2]

Thank you for that, Khandro. Could you assure me that intercourse did not take place until at least menstruation? That in itself is shocking enough (I vividly remember the shock of finding myself bleeding - aged 12).