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We're On Our Way........
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It's not that much "head in the sand", Zacs.
The UK does not want a hard border, Ireland does not want a hard border. There's only one party that does. If the EU wants to police traffic entering EU territory (in Ireland) then they need to make the arrangements. If Ireland has a problem with this they should take it up with their EU masters.
Personally I would prefer the EU to use its resources policing its maritime borders to the south and its land borders to the east. But that's a matter for them.
The UK does not want a hard border, Ireland does not want a hard border. There's only one party that does. If the EU wants to police traffic entering EU territory (in Ireland) then they need to make the arrangements. If Ireland has a problem with this they should take it up with their EU masters.
Personally I would prefer the EU to use its resources policing its maritime borders to the south and its land borders to the east. But that's a matter for them.
"What if 'Northern Ireland' has a problem with a hard border?"
Then they will have to learn to live with it. I don't for one moment see why the wishes and needs of less than 3% of the UK's population (of whom only 55% or 440,000 voted to Remain) should determine what 17m people voted for.
As it happens I don't believe the Irish border will prove an insurmountable problem. It is simply yet another obstacle placed in the way of a smooth exit by our European "partners" in their concerted effort to screw even more concessions from us. Vast amounts of goods and people enter the EU from outside the bloc - including from nations with whom the EU has no trading agreements - every day. The piffling amount or traffic that crosses the Irish border is all but insignificant. All that's needed is a little common sense and co-operation. But if the EU insists on erecting barriers in Ireland good luck to them. The people of Northern Ireland can always hold a referendum to join the south if they wish. Times change, circumstances change and people have to change with them.
Then they will have to learn to live with it. I don't for one moment see why the wishes and needs of less than 3% of the UK's population (of whom only 55% or 440,000 voted to Remain) should determine what 17m people voted for.
As it happens I don't believe the Irish border will prove an insurmountable problem. It is simply yet another obstacle placed in the way of a smooth exit by our European "partners" in their concerted effort to screw even more concessions from us. Vast amounts of goods and people enter the EU from outside the bloc - including from nations with whom the EU has no trading agreements - every day. The piffling amount or traffic that crosses the Irish border is all but insignificant. All that's needed is a little common sense and co-operation. But if the EU insists on erecting barriers in Ireland good luck to them. The people of Northern Ireland can always hold a referendum to join the south if they wish. Times change, circumstances change and people have to change with them.
I think you’re oversimplifying it and, dare I say, exuding a further air of head in the sand politics.
I’m sure you’re aware that Brexit will require deletion of references to the EU within the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, Northern Ireland’s peace deal and, in turn, provides mechanisms for the financing of the peace process by the EU. there seems to be no wiggle room for a legal challenge to this. Unless you know different?
Any bilateral one-off deal between the UK and Irish governments to maintain the Customs Union between the two states would require EU approval. Failure to agree such a deal would impact significantly upon Northern Ireland as a site of tariff checks, something which NI are, I believe, vehemently opposed to.
You are correct, the Secretary of State can stage a referendum within Northern Ireland if it appears a united Ireland is what is wanted. But there is only the possibility of a poll every seven years under the Agreement.
I’m sure you’re aware that Brexit will require deletion of references to the EU within the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, Northern Ireland’s peace deal and, in turn, provides mechanisms for the financing of the peace process by the EU. there seems to be no wiggle room for a legal challenge to this. Unless you know different?
Any bilateral one-off deal between the UK and Irish governments to maintain the Customs Union between the two states would require EU approval. Failure to agree such a deal would impact significantly upon Northern Ireland as a site of tariff checks, something which NI are, I believe, vehemently opposed to.
You are correct, the Secretary of State can stage a referendum within Northern Ireland if it appears a united Ireland is what is wanted. But there is only the possibility of a poll every seven years under the Agreement.
// As Jackdaw says, it allows us to retain the good and ditch the bad.//
the usual suspects think there will be greater freedom
there wont
the mechanics of the bill gives any minister carte blanche to rewrite laws ( to ditch the good blah blahblah ) according to his wishes
without any recourse to parliament
a flourish of his ministerial pen - and a few more liberties go out of the window
they are ringing their bicycle bells now but soon they will be wringing their hands ( someone 1700s )
the usual suspects think there will be greater freedom
there wont
the mechanics of the bill gives any minister carte blanche to rewrite laws ( to ditch the good blah blahblah ) according to his wishes
without any recourse to parliament
a flourish of his ministerial pen - and a few more liberties go out of the window
they are ringing their bicycle bells now but soon they will be wringing their hands ( someone 1700s )
That it's a land border between a British country and an EU country isn't any concern to the side happy to continue it as an open, if monitored border. It's an issue for those unhappy it's open to make arrangements to accommodate whatever it is they do want. All has autonomy on how they treat their border.
Never been an issue of Brexit for the UK, but RoI/EU intransigence may be an issue for those in NI which, if the RoI and the EU are determined to prioritize having a hard border over the peace process (and that's their choice to make, and be seen for what they decide) they'll need to accept. One can't force neighbours to be friendly.
Documents can be edited to reflect the new political changes. Need not be an issue.
Never been an issue of Brexit for the UK, but RoI/EU intransigence may be an issue for those in NI which, if the RoI and the EU are determined to prioritize having a hard border over the peace process (and that's their choice to make, and be seen for what they decide) they'll need to accept. One can't force neighbours to be friendly.
Documents can be edited to reflect the new political changes. Need not be an issue.
Yes I am aware of the problems, Zacs.
But whatever they are they are not (or cannot be allowed to be) intractable. It is simply not an option to say “It’s too difficult. We cannot do it”. All sides (the people of Northern Ireland, the people of Ireland and the EU) will have to show flexibility in view of the changes that are required of them to enable the UK to leave the UK. A very small component part of the UK (45% of whose population voted to leave the EU) simply cannot be allowed to thwart the process. The Good Friday Agreement was always a farce and such agreements can be modified. It is quite obvious that the EU will do all it can to make our departure as difficult as possible. I would expect nothing else. But the UK must make whatever arrangements are required to see us leave. If that means upsetting a few people on the island of Ireland then so be it.
The best solution might be perhaps for both sides of the border to hold a referendum: those in the north can decide if they want to join their friends in the south and remain in the EU; those in the south can decide whether they’d like to become part of the UK. as far as I'm aware they haven't had one recently so the seven year rule should not prove a hinderance. In the (very likely) event that they both choose the status quo they should be under no illusion that there may be changes in the border arrangements due to the EU’s intransigence. This country needs to get on and do things instead of endlessly bleating that things cannot be done.
But whatever they are they are not (or cannot be allowed to be) intractable. It is simply not an option to say “It’s too difficult. We cannot do it”. All sides (the people of Northern Ireland, the people of Ireland and the EU) will have to show flexibility in view of the changes that are required of them to enable the UK to leave the UK. A very small component part of the UK (45% of whose population voted to leave the EU) simply cannot be allowed to thwart the process. The Good Friday Agreement was always a farce and such agreements can be modified. It is quite obvious that the EU will do all it can to make our departure as difficult as possible. I would expect nothing else. But the UK must make whatever arrangements are required to see us leave. If that means upsetting a few people on the island of Ireland then so be it.
The best solution might be perhaps for both sides of the border to hold a referendum: those in the north can decide if they want to join their friends in the south and remain in the EU; those in the south can decide whether they’d like to become part of the UK. as far as I'm aware they haven't had one recently so the seven year rule should not prove a hinderance. In the (very likely) event that they both choose the status quo they should be under no illusion that there may be changes in the border arrangements due to the EU’s intransigence. This country needs to get on and do things instead of endlessly bleating that things cannot be done.
Its a difficult one for sure NJ. But you’re right.....something has to happen that not everyone will be happy with. I know your view is that we must escape our EU overlords at all costs. I just think it’s a shame that the cost is a divided country, a potentially further divided Ireland and all with no guarantee of any benefit.
