The Soul & Personality

[birdie1971]

A person's personality can sometimes be radically and permanently altered by brain injury, disease, emotional trauma, drugs and alcohol. This is an established fact. If we also accept as fact the postulate that human beings have immortal souls in the classical sense (ie. that your unique personality and your mortal memories survive the expiration of your corporeal body), which personality "survives" upon your death?

[Hopkirk]

A soul is a lovely idea, and adds to the great fairy story.

Unfortunately it is just a myth.

There is no such thing as a soul.

[sandyRoe]

Imagine someone mired in sin who had a massive stroke and thereafter existed in a vegetative state. When he finally stood before the judgement throne would he be assessed on his lifetime of debauchery or as the hollow shell he'd become. There can be little doubt that such a libertine would be destined for the eternal flames no matter what his present state.

[birdie1971]

Khandro - "... vita mutatur, non tollitur. (Life is changed, not taken away). The phrase is in the preface of the first Catholic rite of the Mass for the Dead..."

Is that your answer to me? I politely asked you to explain the concept of "rebirth" as you understand it and this is your response?

Oh well, I suppose I should have known better. You're developing a very good repertoire of evasive, asinine, meaningless "answers". If your "answer" is anything to go by, I think you should seriously consider changing your AB name to "SmugBubbleOfVacuity"*

* attribution - LazyGun.

[birdie1971]

Keyplus -

Any response to my perfectly reasonable argument? Or do you need to consult your Imam first?

[birdie1971]

sandyRoe - "... Imagine someone mired in sin who had a massive stroke and thereafter existed in a vegetative state. When he finally stood before the judgement throne would he be assessed on his lifetime of debauchery or as the hollow shell he'd become..."

Nice try but no cigar. You've attempted to short-circuit my argument by adding the "vegetative state" get-out scenario.

But we're not talking about someone in a vegetative state. We're talking about a person who is now a moral, upstanding member of the community and as far as anyone can tell, will be for the rest of his (hopefully) long life. His genuinely unpleasant personality has now been usurped by an artificially induced "nice" personality as a result of the brain trauma.

My question still stands and you haven't addressed it.

[sandyRoe]

Mother Church holds, as do lesser Christian sects, that sinners who truly repent of their past and firmly resolve to sin no more, are saved. This is a concept that I accept but am not entirely happy with.
But when it's an external force that has brought about the change, where's the repentance? The knife that lobotomised your Australian thug hasn't carved out a new man, it simply damaged the old one. And it's him who will one day pay for his sinning ways.

[jomifl]

/vita mutatur, non tollitur. (Life is changed, not taken away). The phrase is in the preface of the first Catholic rite of the Mass for the Dead. /
That is so funny Khandro. If dead people aren't dead then live people aren't alive?

[solvitquick]

There's probably a soul bank a bit like Noel Edmonds Swap-Shop. So mine goes in and is hopefully chosen by some dope!. Similarly I might chose a different one, in fact I would!
I'd chose a fresh-water fisherman. You know the guy who sits in the pouring rain stirring at the water all day. Just the sort of soul equipped to deal with the eternal boredom of everlasting life.
SIQ.

[grasscarp]

Boredom of everlasting life solvitquick? How do you know this?

[solvitquick]

Dear grasscarp,
It's a self-evident truth. We have limited attention span.
I've experienced it already: forced to watch Strictly Come Dancing by my female partner; waiting for the dentist or doctor etc.
Have you really thought this through grasscarp - what you will do forever?
It's a nightmare which fortunately will never happen.
SIQ.

[birdie1971]

sandyRoe - "... when it's an external force that has brought about the change, where's the repentance? The knife that lobotomised your Australian thug hasn't carved out a new man, it simply damaged the old one. And it's him who will one day pay for his sinning ways..."

He'll "pay for his sinning ways". How very presumptuous of you and how very revealing about you your statement is. As I've relayed the story, the Australian in question (lets call him "Bob") hasn't committed any sin. Unpleasant though he was, he wasn't a criminal. Bob didn't kill people nor did he steal, lie, lust or even take the Lord's name in vain. But in your mind, Bob's a sinner all right and he's going straight to hell.

Regardless, let's say that Bob does repent his "sins". The question still stands - which Bob will go to heaven? The old, real Bob, or the (to use your phrase) new lobotomised nice Bob?

[grasscarp]

Dear solveitquick
You ask if I have really thought this through - what I will do forever?
No. And I cannot imagine eternity either.
At the moment we have limited earthly finite minds and cannot imagine concept of everlasting life.
I very much hope it is nothing like being forced to watch strictly come dancing too.

[Khandro]

jomifl; Yeah, you can meet zombies every day, in fact, there are one or two on here. :-)

[jomifl]

Well that's us accounted for, do you think there are any more?

[solvitquick]

Dear Birdie,
Suspending belief in the absence of the soul and accepting your thesis on the soul's existence, surely the personality which survives is the one you have on death.
Any pre-death personality cannot leave the material body as it is owned by a living person. Hence the good lobotomised Australian soul is the one which goes to eternity (poor sod!). Unfortunately those of us who die in pain will carry that pain with them as it is a fundamental factor in determining our final personality just like our education, life's experiences etc.
SIQ.

[sacha.86]

There is no jelousey, anger, hatered etc in paradise so we wont be the same people just the pure goodness of our ownselves. Everything is beautiful in paradise nicer and more beautiful than any mind could ever comprehend. If you worry about there been anything in heaven that you will not like or anything in hell that you will like, then know; that heaven is purely a place of like and plesure and hell a place of only, torment, torcher and dis-pleasure.

[naomi24]

Sacha, how do you know all this?

[birdie1971]

sacha.86 - "... There is no jelousey, anger, hatered etc in paradise so we wont be the same people..."

You're echoing Keyplus's argument: the earthly "you" is not the same "you" that goes to heaven and experiences "paradise". So how exactly do "you" go to heaven? Your explanation is woolly at best and nonsensical at worst.

[sacha.86]

because in comparison to other religions Islam teaches quite a lot about the afterlife. It from what I have read from documentation that was recorded over 1400 years ago. You get to heaven if you have a beliefe that there is only one God and that Muhammad is a messenger and that jesus is a messenger. Thats what I believe. There is plenty of historical evidence that the prophet Muhammad exsisted but I don't only see him as a historical figure but as a prophet. Theres a whole process after death. If bad we are first torched in the grave whilst awaiting the day of judgement, before having to travel for 50,000 years to make it to be judged. once we are judge God decides whether we thrown into the fire or send to heaven. There are seven levels of heaven dependent upon rightious deeds and different levels of tourcher in the hell fire. If a believer lives and evil life they can be thrown into the fire to first be punished for there actions before being saved and brought to heaven. Knowledgable Muslims Thank God when faced with trails and tribulations in this life because they know they are either been forgiven of their sins in this life and been saved from being punished in hell (which would be much worse) or that if it is not a punishment that it is to elevate ones status in Paradise.

[sandyRoe]

When I stand before the judgement seat I hope to hear these words: 'Come on in, Sandy Roe, you've been through hell already.'