A 'racist' Gesture, Anti-Semitic Committed By A Muslim Footballer Can This Be True?

[anotheoldgit]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2530442/Footballer-Nicholas-Anelka-fire-making-French-anti-Semitic-gesture-scoring-goal.html

[OILhead]

I have nothing against Jewish people or the Jewish faith, but the policies of Israel as a country concern me - mostly for their occupation of the Palestinian lands, ongoing settlement growth, etc. That does not make me anti semitic - I have similar views towards the USA and many other countries - I dislike and am against the vast majority of what the current UK government stands for and does, but again that does not make me anti British - many of here were against much of what the Labour government did but again that did not make them anti British or anti Christian or whatever. I do not understand your point AOG in equating an opposition to the policies of the Israeli government to being an anti Semite.

[anotheoldgit]

OILhead

Nevertheless it would seem that if one is against certain actions of the Islamic faith, one is immediately classed as anti-Muslim or even racist, now can you see where I am coming from?

[emmie]

the policies of many countries bother me, like those that adhere to a book, doctrine that is thousands of years old, who think it right women are treated as second or even third class citizens. beaten, raped, murdered,
because the belief that women indeed are of no consequence.

[OILhead]

I agree that to some degree that happens, but then many of the comments that I see on AB about Islam, Muslims, etc. do tend to make sweeping statements and ignoring the fact that millions of muslims live quiet peaceable lives. Maybe it is a side effect of a forum like this in that people often make sweeping statements on both sides - label all Muslims, label everyone who voices concerns as being racist, anti semitic, whatever it may be.

[LazyGun]

You will find people from all races who are bigots. No race is excluded from that.

The issue at hand here is that of intent, really. The report suggests that this "La Quenelle" is a widespread and well known gesture of anti-semitism, sweeping across europe - but I had never heard of it. The only Quenelle I was aware of was the food variety. I have never heard of such a thing as a "reverse Nazi salute" before this article - how many on AB have, I wonder?

So - Is the gesture deliberately anti-semitic? The self-proclaimed inventor of the symbol, this polemical anti-israeli supported by Iran activist claims it is an anti-establishment gesture, rather than an explicitly anti-semitic one; His opponents, largely those who see his work as being anti-semitic, claim it is an anti-semitic gesture. Given this uncertainty, and given the obscurity of the gesture it is difficult to say one way or another.

Is Anelka Anti-Semitic? No idea. Is his friend, this comedian, anti-semitic? He has certainly made some inflammatory statements which have been described as such, but often the context is necessary.I have never heard of this guy before today.You can only take action against Anelka, it seems to me, if the symbol being used is widely - internationally? - recognised as being an anti-semitic symbol, and it plainly is not.

To me though there is a clear distinction between criticising Israels ongoing treatment of the palestinians and indeed the manner in which Israel itself was formed - legitimate areas of criticism - and a blanket hatred of jews simply because they are a jew, which I would describe as being anti-semitic, although jewish commentators and the jewish establishment would have it otherwise.

[Gromit]

AOG

My past posts about Israeli foreign policy have elicited accusation of anti semitism before. The two things are entirely different. I have friends and colleagues who are Jewish and that is fine for me. If the Israeli army bulldozes someones house I will be against it.

[emmie]

if someone bulldozed my house i would be livid. However sometimes these matters are complex, and sometimes we speak without knowing all the facts, and they are not always available to confirm what one has said.
The comedian made some comments about the Holocaust that would be offensive, in light of how many died who were French citizens, and not the 6 million over all

[emmie]

Anelkas friend

Dieudonné M'Bala M'Bala, however, is well known in France for maintaining antisemitic views and for having come up with the quenelle, which he first used in 2009 while standing in the European elections for an anti-Zionist party. The 47-year-old has insisted that the gesture is meant as an anti-establishment protest and is not directed specifically at the Jewish community, but it has been described as "the sodomisation of victims of the Holocaust" by Alain Jakubowicz, the president of the French league against racism and antisemitism. Dieudonné has reportedly started legal proceedings against Jakubowicz for libel.

France's interior minister, Manuel Valls, is now considering whether to ban all public appearances by Dieudonné, who has been fined a number of times for hate speech, with the controversy surrounding Anelka's celebration hardly likely to help the so-called comedian's cause.

[emmie]

if someone called you a Jewish &&&&& wouldn't you be offended, gestures are every bit as offensive, and Holocaust deniers are not few in number.

[Gromit]

Emmie,
Not a criticism, but if you are going to copy from another source such as the Guardian, it is usually best to italicise it or use the // quote // convention.

As it is, your post of 15:34 looks like they are your words but they were written by the Guardian reporter Sachin Nakrani.

[emmie]

generally i just link it so some can read it, however i didn't, because i have discovered many don't bother to read links.

[Zeuhl]

/Nevertheless it would seem that if one is against certain actions of the Islamic faith, one is immediately classed as anti-Muslim or even racist, now can you see where I am coming from?/

Yes
I suspect we can all see where aog is coming from.

Problem is, his reasoning is horribly muddled and distorted.

No one in this has criticised the actions of the Jewish faith. They have criticised some of the actions of Israel, a political entity.

So there is no comparison.

[emmie]

you mean in pretty much the same way that the English are blamed for defeating the Scots in battles centuries ago, or being hated by the Irish for occupation of their land, all the while forgetting that we are a rather mixed bag of peoples - my point being some things are rather more complex, and if one says Israel one assumes that only Jews live there, am i wrong..

[Gromit]

16% of Israelis are Muslim. 2% are Christian.

[Zeuhl]

Yes you are emmie - you are also confusing political entities (England) with faith or racial groups. Remember that the initial wars of conquest in Scotland and Ireland were a continuation of the french (Norman) conquest of the islands

Israel is not synonymous with the 'Jewish faith'.

There are Israeli Arabs

And there are many Jewish Israelis who are critical of their government's policies.

And many who are not ethnically middle eastern. P

And the majority of the worlds Jews are not Israelis.

[emmie]

maybe they are not, but why in which case does the continuing criticism largely get levelled at the Jews.

so what make up of Israel are the other percentage.

"16% of Israelis are Muslim. 2% are Christian.

[emmie]

if Israeli Jews criticise their governments policy, what are they doing there.
Many don't want a state of Israel...

[emmie]

wiki

The demography of Israel is monitored by the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics. The State of Israel has a population of approximately 8,012,400 inhabitants as of 31 March 2013.
75.4 percent of them are Jewish (about 6,037,700 individuals), 20.6 percent are Arabs (about 1,656,600 individuals), while the remaining 4 percent (about 318,100 individuals) are defined as "others" (family members of Jewish immigrants who are not registered at the Ministry of Interior as Jews, non-Arab Christians, non-Arab Muslims and residents who do not have an ethnic or religious classification).