Crosswords1 min ago
Brexit
Can someone explain to me how, without Customs Posts or Passport Controls, you can have a
"soft" border between Ireland(in the EU) and Northern Ireland(outside the EU)? Would this not require both parties to accept free movement of people and membership of the customs union?
Many politicians state a "soft border" as their objective but none explain how.
"soft" border between Ireland(in the EU) and Northern Ireland(outside the EU)? Would this not require both parties to accept free movement of people and membership of the customs union?
Many politicians state a "soft border" as their objective but none explain how.
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Depending on whom you ask, the historic agreement last week was either a wonderful step forward towards a solution or -- more likely -- a wonderful diplomatic fudge in which everyone is happy to work towards a solution while still disagreeing on what that solution will actually be.
It's still not clear to me how you can reconcile the various entirely contradictory positions on the Irish Border Question, but then again I'm not a diplomat so maybe I lack the required imagination. At any rate hopefully it'll be resolved sooner rather than later.
It's still not clear to me how you can reconcile the various entirely contradictory positions on the Irish Border Question, but then again I'm not a diplomat so maybe I lack the required imagination. At any rate hopefully it'll be resolved sooner rather than later.
"Scotland ,Wales and London have all said that if Northern Ireland is allowed any type of 'special relationship' with the EU , then that relationship MUST also apply to them as Northern Ireland is as much a part of the UK as they are."
Fair enough, Scotland ,Wales and London, can keep their border with southern Ireland soft too, if they can find one.
Fair enough, Scotland ,Wales and London, can keep their border with southern Ireland soft too, if they can find one.
We have a so called soft border now. It's only EU demands regarding their overall border not being soft, that's causing an issue
The border we have now works ok. If the southern Irish want to put a hard border in place on orders of the EU (and then have the blooming cheek to blame their action on the UK) that would be their deliberate choice. They could choose to insist on passport checks their side of the border as is their desire, the UK can opt not to change things the other side.
The border we have now works ok. If the southern Irish want to put a hard border in place on orders of the EU (and then have the blooming cheek to blame their action on the UK) that would be their deliberate choice. They could choose to insist on passport checks their side of the border as is their desire, the UK can opt not to change things the other side.
OG the point is that there can not be one solution for Northern Ireland which is a full part of the UK, unless the same solution,remaining in the Customs Union, is also put in place for the other parts of the UK which want it. Scotland Wales and London have already said that if Northern Ireland is allowed to remain in the customs union then the same MUST also apply to them.
This is all from TV and the BBC NOT my opinion.
Though my view is the same, I can not see how it is possible for Northern and Southern Ireland to have a completely free open border unless NI remains in the Customs Union.
This is all from TV and the BBC NOT my opinion.
Though my view is the same, I can not see how it is possible for Northern and Southern Ireland to have a completely free open border unless NI remains in the Customs Union.
eddie, yes but when have I ever said this, " "You also previously expressed support for the idea that anyone who was not rich enough to own at least 2 cars should be priced off the road and forced to use public transport" - show me where I said that? " - you cannot make up lies and the ascribe them to me. Anyway as OG says it's up to the EU if they want to build a hard border.
But no one should seriously expect any part of the UK to stay while the rest leave. It can not be part of any solution because the EU can not dictate how the UK and Eire run their country or borders. A different solution, or I should say A solution, needs to be found and that ball's in the EU's court. So there is no issue with other parts of the UK wanting the same. The only issue is the EU's attitude to the border itself.
On the contrary. The news has nothing to do with it. The situation has always been that Eire claim to want a soft border but their actions and rants againt the UK prove they just want to do what the EU tells them, and put one up. Were they really wanting a soft border, well so do the UK, so no problem then. Unless some third party is deliberately causing problems.
“OG again you are not keeping up with the news. Both Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic insist that there must NEVER be any form of control on either side of the border. No passports no checks nothing.”
Eddie OG is correct, if we chose to do nothing on our side then it’s up to the ROI to deal with their EU masters if they don’t want a hard border. Not our job to interfere in the internal matters of the EU.
Eddie OG is correct, if we chose to do nothing on our side then it’s up to the ROI to deal with their EU masters if they don’t want a hard border. Not our job to interfere in the internal matters of the EU.
No one knows how this is going to work. Least of all the people who negotiated it.
The DUP's huffing and puffing about this is 100% political. On the one hand they talk about no regulatory alignment between NI and the ROI, but that is pie in the sky. There is no border now between these to countries and never will be again. What is more the economies of those two parts of the British Isles are actually far more closely alogned than NI's economy is with the rest of the UK's - which is itself not some uniform reality: Wales is different from Scotland is different from England. London is a separate world from the rest of England and so on. The UK is slowly breaking apart economically at least.
And which party is lobbying for corporation tax in NI to be reduced to ROI levels?
Correct: the DUP, no less!
The DUP's huffing and puffing about this is 100% political. On the one hand they talk about no regulatory alignment between NI and the ROI, but that is pie in the sky. There is no border now between these to countries and never will be again. What is more the economies of those two parts of the British Isles are actually far more closely alogned than NI's economy is with the rest of the UK's - which is itself not some uniform reality: Wales is different from Scotland is different from England. London is a separate world from the rest of England and so on. The UK is slowly breaking apart economically at least.
And which party is lobbying for corporation tax in NI to be reduced to ROI levels?
Correct: the DUP, no less!
TTT here is the question where you repeatedly say that if the poor can afford cars then motoring is too cheap. You also state that you own several cars.
https:/
It is also where you say that every foreign goods vehicle should be charged £1000 every time they want to enter the UK.
It is you that seems to have a selective memory .
https:/
It is also where you say that every foreign goods vehicle should be charged £1000 every time they want to enter the UK.
It is you that seems to have a selective memory .
I think the point is that both sides want the border to be open, but the UK wants to leave the Customs Union -- which, it seems, requires the border to be closed at least enough that you can monitor what crosses it.
That's a contradiction, and -- despite what OG says -- it's the UK's contradiction to solve. We cannot both stay in and leave the Customs Union. If what we want is incompatible with a soft border then either we can't really have that soft border or we can't have what we want.
The solution expressed in the agreement last week appears to amount, in practice, to agreeing to leave the Customs Union but also having exactly the same rules in place, but -- to succour the DUP -- to not say that this is what's going to happen. Whether this is the best possible solution remains to be seen, but it's a somewhat hand-wavy approach that Brexiters seem to be adopting: create a bunch of problems, then expect other people to solve them for you while standing to one side and explaining how easy it all is really.
That's a contradiction, and -- despite what OG says -- it's the UK's contradiction to solve. We cannot both stay in and leave the Customs Union. If what we want is incompatible with a soft border then either we can't really have that soft border or we can't have what we want.
The solution expressed in the agreement last week appears to amount, in practice, to agreeing to leave the Customs Union but also having exactly the same rules in place, but -- to succour the DUP -- to not say that this is what's going to happen. Whether this is the best possible solution remains to be seen, but it's a somewhat hand-wavy approach that Brexiters seem to be adopting: create a bunch of problems, then expect other people to solve them for you while standing to one side and explaining how easy it all is really.
“…instead of dishing out these tiresome insults, you can explain how the Border is going to work, post March 2019 ?”
The same way as it works now.
There has been no effective border between the Six Counties and the Republic of Ireland since (I think) about 1923. There is complete freedom of movement of goods, money and people. Neither side wants that to change nor does the UK government want that to change. The EU has hundreds if not thousands of miles of land borders with non-member nations along its northern and eastern boundaries and much of it is not policed. There are no problems with that. There is no wholesale movement of people and no widespread “smuggling” of goods. The vast majority of Ireland’s trade (and hence its movement of goods and money) is with the rest of the UK. There is no need for an enforced border any more than there is for one between France and Monaco or Italy and The Vatican or San Marino.
As far as movement of people goes Ireland is not part of the “Schengen” Agreement. So whilst it cannot refuse entry to people from other EU nations it can (and does) exercise passport controls for people arriving there. With no border between there and the UK it effectively means that Ireland undertakes border control for the rest of the UK. This has worked perfectly well for a hundred years and has also worked perfectly well for the past forty-odd when both countries were EU members.
Since the only party seeming to want a hard border is the EU then it is they who should provide a solution. Trade that takes place between the UK and Ireland is rarely “third party” trade. It is simply goods and services being exchanged between the two. Simply put, the Irish border question is a non-event. It is a problem contrived by the Euromaniacs to delay and obfuscate in the matter of the talks between the UK and the EU in the same way that the “divorce bill” was. The only reason it hit the headlines in the way it did last week was because Mrs May wanted to sell the people of Northern Ireland down the river by effectively leaving them as a stand-alone fiefdom of the EU in order to secure a “deal” (which, for some inexplicable reason she seems prepared to do at any price – including sacrificing her own self-respect). To suggest that either NI or the UK as a whole must remain shackled to the EU in some way because of the border arrangements between the UK and Ireland is simply preposterous.
“ TTT, I also wonder how you equate your hatred for the EU and all it stands for with your boasting about owning a German car?”
Because probably, Eddie, like me TTT does not hate Europe or individual European nations or their peoples. It is the institution that is the EU that he despises. I visit Europe frequently, have friends there and enjoy many of their products and services. It is the corrupt, protectionist and fiercely anti-democratic European Union, its institutions, officials, philosophy, aims and objectives that I hate.
The “agreement” that was made last week amid such fanfare will be typical of all those that politicians make. It will satisfy nobody and everybody at the same time. When we move on to the proper trade talks (if we ever do) it is probably likely that it will be unpicked and will fall apart. Hopefully then the talks will break down and we will do what we should have done eighteen months ago – simply leave and trade on WTO terms. But as I said, since it is only the EU that wants to enforce a border it will be for them to determine how it will be enforced. If it is anything like the enforcement undertaken on their southern borders then nobody has any cause for concern. Furthermore, since Ireland has far more to lose from a border of any sort than has the UK, it should be the Taoiseach who will be going cap in hand to their Masters in Brussels. But I’ll not hold my breath.
The same way as it works now.
There has been no effective border between the Six Counties and the Republic of Ireland since (I think) about 1923. There is complete freedom of movement of goods, money and people. Neither side wants that to change nor does the UK government want that to change. The EU has hundreds if not thousands of miles of land borders with non-member nations along its northern and eastern boundaries and much of it is not policed. There are no problems with that. There is no wholesale movement of people and no widespread “smuggling” of goods. The vast majority of Ireland’s trade (and hence its movement of goods and money) is with the rest of the UK. There is no need for an enforced border any more than there is for one between France and Monaco or Italy and The Vatican or San Marino.
As far as movement of people goes Ireland is not part of the “Schengen” Agreement. So whilst it cannot refuse entry to people from other EU nations it can (and does) exercise passport controls for people arriving there. With no border between there and the UK it effectively means that Ireland undertakes border control for the rest of the UK. This has worked perfectly well for a hundred years and has also worked perfectly well for the past forty-odd when both countries were EU members.
Since the only party seeming to want a hard border is the EU then it is they who should provide a solution. Trade that takes place between the UK and Ireland is rarely “third party” trade. It is simply goods and services being exchanged between the two. Simply put, the Irish border question is a non-event. It is a problem contrived by the Euromaniacs to delay and obfuscate in the matter of the talks between the UK and the EU in the same way that the “divorce bill” was. The only reason it hit the headlines in the way it did last week was because Mrs May wanted to sell the people of Northern Ireland down the river by effectively leaving them as a stand-alone fiefdom of the EU in order to secure a “deal” (which, for some inexplicable reason she seems prepared to do at any price – including sacrificing her own self-respect). To suggest that either NI or the UK as a whole must remain shackled to the EU in some way because of the border arrangements between the UK and Ireland is simply preposterous.
“ TTT, I also wonder how you equate your hatred for the EU and all it stands for with your boasting about owning a German car?”
Because probably, Eddie, like me TTT does not hate Europe or individual European nations or their peoples. It is the institution that is the EU that he despises. I visit Europe frequently, have friends there and enjoy many of their products and services. It is the corrupt, protectionist and fiercely anti-democratic European Union, its institutions, officials, philosophy, aims and objectives that I hate.
The “agreement” that was made last week amid such fanfare will be typical of all those that politicians make. It will satisfy nobody and everybody at the same time. When we move on to the proper trade talks (if we ever do) it is probably likely that it will be unpicked and will fall apart. Hopefully then the talks will break down and we will do what we should have done eighteen months ago – simply leave and trade on WTO terms. But as I said, since it is only the EU that wants to enforce a border it will be for them to determine how it will be enforced. If it is anything like the enforcement undertaken on their southern borders then nobody has any cause for concern. Furthermore, since Ireland has far more to lose from a border of any sort than has the UK, it should be the Taoiseach who will be going cap in hand to their Masters in Brussels. But I’ll not hold my breath.
It isn't any contradiction. One won't be trying to stay in and out at once. Presumably we'll be out.
A separate issue is the state of the Irish border. As the UK isn't the one insisting it must be a hard border it isn't the UK's contradiction to solve. Although being helpful we'd naturally like to help others out if their issue.
And we had a possible solution to monitoring right from the start. The tech is there to check who crosses. No real reason for not following up on anything that seems not above board. I really hope that, that is already the case, as if not there's something wrong with the existing situation.
A separate issue is the state of the Irish border. As the UK isn't the one insisting it must be a hard border it isn't the UK's contradiction to solve. Although being helpful we'd naturally like to help others out if their issue.
And we had a possible solution to monitoring right from the start. The tech is there to check who crosses. No real reason for not following up on anything that seems not above board. I really hope that, that is already the case, as if not there's something wrong with the existing situation.
"...despite what OG says -- it's the UK's contradiction to solve. We cannot both stay in and leave the Customs Union."
I disagree, Jim.
It is not our customs union and we will have no interest in preserving its integrity after we have left it. We have no problems with free movement from south to north. If EU wants to prevent goods, money and people moving from NI to the south it will be a problem for them (and the Irish government)to solve
I disagree, Jim.
It is not our customs union and we will have no interest in preserving its integrity after we have left it. We have no problems with free movement from south to north. If EU wants to prevent goods, money and people moving from NI to the south it will be a problem for them (and the Irish government)to solve
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