Body & Soul5 mins ago
What Else Has He Not Quite Understood?
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"Brexit secretary Dominic Raab says he ‘hadn’t quite understood’ importance of Dover-Calais crossing"
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"The EU never has needed to implement a hard border but threatens to do so for two reasons."
The EU has no authority to implement and police the border on the island of Ireland. Since neither the UK nor Ireland has any intention whatsoever of doing so, the question that needs asking (and one MP did so in Parliament three or four weeks ago but received no reply) is "Who exactly is going to implement and police the border?"
The border question has simply been weaponised by the EU in an attempt to force us to remain in a customs union with them. Among their biggest fears of Brexit (and, despite assertions to the contrary, they have quite a few) is that we become globally competitive in a way that we never can whilst we are members and that we undercut the members of their protectionist racket. Unfortunately our spineless government has acquiesced to their every demand. So eager are they for the UK to remain as "quasi-members" of the UK that their powers of reasoning seem to have flown out of the window.
The EU has no authority to implement and police the border on the island of Ireland. Since neither the UK nor Ireland has any intention whatsoever of doing so, the question that needs asking (and one MP did so in Parliament three or four weeks ago but received no reply) is "Who exactly is going to implement and police the border?"
The border question has simply been weaponised by the EU in an attempt to force us to remain in a customs union with them. Among their biggest fears of Brexit (and, despite assertions to the contrary, they have quite a few) is that we become globally competitive in a way that we never can whilst we are members and that we undercut the members of their protectionist racket. Unfortunately our spineless government has acquiesced to their every demand. So eager are they for the UK to remain as "quasi-members" of the UK that their powers of reasoning seem to have flown out of the window.
"Well surely that defeats half the point of brexit? You know.. controlling our own borders? If there is a weak point in Ireland that will get abused."
Not for the first time, spathi, you entirely fail to grasp the situation. There has been no effective border in Ireland since The Irish Free State seceded from the United Kingdom in 1922. It has been the choice of the UK and Irish governments to continue that arrangement (although there have been some minor changes since 1997 enabling selective border checks to be undertaken if necessary). This agreement has nothing to do with the EU and in fact bestows far greater rights on UK and Irish citizens to live and work in either country than the EU's freedom of movement rules do.
There has never been a problem with either migration or smuggling of goods between the two (principally because no effective border exists). Even more than that, each country has separate tax and excise regimes and these are managed perfectly well despite the open border. So there is no "weak point" in Ireland that stands at risk of being abused after Brexit. The UK electorate's principle issue with immigration is of the uncontrolled type that is currently evident across the EU. Since Ireland is not a Schengen member it imposes border controls on arrivals from mainland Europe and there is no large scale problem with illegal immigration into Ireland (which would enable any people landing there to freely cross into the UK). The UK wants to regain control of its borders as it sees fit. And it sees fit to allow unrestricted transit of both goods and people across the Irish border.
Not for the first time, spathi, you entirely fail to grasp the situation. There has been no effective border in Ireland since The Irish Free State seceded from the United Kingdom in 1922. It has been the choice of the UK and Irish governments to continue that arrangement (although there have been some minor changes since 1997 enabling selective border checks to be undertaken if necessary). This agreement has nothing to do with the EU and in fact bestows far greater rights on UK and Irish citizens to live and work in either country than the EU's freedom of movement rules do.
There has never been a problem with either migration or smuggling of goods between the two (principally because no effective border exists). Even more than that, each country has separate tax and excise regimes and these are managed perfectly well despite the open border. So there is no "weak point" in Ireland that stands at risk of being abused after Brexit. The UK electorate's principle issue with immigration is of the uncontrolled type that is currently evident across the EU. Since Ireland is not a Schengen member it imposes border controls on arrivals from mainland Europe and there is no large scale problem with illegal immigration into Ireland (which would enable any people landing there to freely cross into the UK). The UK wants to regain control of its borders as it sees fit. And it sees fit to allow unrestricted transit of both goods and people across the Irish border.
"They will apply pressure to the RoI to do it for them or face consequences. Same result."
Good luck to the EU with that. And good luck to Ireland if they are foolish enough to acquiesce. It is widely accepted that without huge resources enforcement of a border in Ireland is practically impossible. Ireland does not have such huge resources and would be unwilling to expend them anyway.
So overawed are all parties by the ideological intransigence of the EU that they have all lost sight of the fact that it is supposed to be there to facilitate its citizens' lives. Their bluff should be called but nobody is willing to do so.
Good luck to the EU with that. And good luck to Ireland if they are foolish enough to acquiesce. It is widely accepted that without huge resources enforcement of a border in Ireland is practically impossible. Ireland does not have such huge resources and would be unwilling to expend them anyway.
So overawed are all parties by the ideological intransigence of the EU that they have all lost sight of the fact that it is supposed to be there to facilitate its citizens' lives. Their bluff should be called but nobody is willing to do so.
"well narn Ireland voted to stay. they can cede to the republic, no?"
Indeed mush. The requirements of 1.8m people (of whom only 440,000 voted to remain) cannot override the democratic will expressed by more than 17 million people. Any notion that the Irish border issue can thwart the prospect of a proper Brexit is simply scandalous.
Indeed mush. The requirements of 1.8m people (of whom only 440,000 voted to remain) cannot override the democratic will expressed by more than 17 million people. Any notion that the Irish border issue can thwart the prospect of a proper Brexit is simply scandalous.
If they're daft enough to want to trigger bloodshed in their homeland they can opt to secede. Everyone else in the UK is trying everything to avoid an outbreak of violence though, barring any inane suggestions such as allowing minorities to dictate to the nation and keep us under the thumb of a mainly foreign power block.
"...barring any inane suggestions such as allowing minorities to dictate to the nation and keep us under the thumb of a mainly foreign power block."
But this is exactly what this is about, OG. The minorities are dictating what should happen because, without the threat of a return to violence all that should happen is that the UK should say that we are imposing no border in Ireland but if you [the EU or Ireland] want to do so, feel free.
But this is exactly what this is about, OG. The minorities are dictating what should happen because, without the threat of a return to violence all that should happen is that the UK should say that we are imposing no border in Ireland but if you [the EU or Ireland] want to do so, feel free.
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