Can the christian (or muslim for that matter) doctrine of hell

[kryptic]

ever be justified?
I have a friend who started to attend a pentecostal church a couple of years ago. Some of the stuff that comes out of his mouth is frankly alarming.
We got talking the other day about the afterlife (which I dont believe in) and he seems to think that it is perfectly justifiable that I will spend my eternity in hell because I dont believe in God. (at least not in the religious sense). I have lost a fair few loved ones over the years, all good people but not religious, and he seems to think that its justified in some way to believe that these folk are burning in a fiery lake. If it wasnt for the fact that I believe he has been brainwashed (and the fact that we have been friends a long time) I might be tempted to clock him one when he comes out with stuff like this.
Any thoughts on hell or on how to deal with this kind of indoctrination?

[nightmare]

Don't you realise you are wasting your time here - trying to have a rational argument with keyplus and his co-believers ?
I suppose it can be entertaining reading their constant output of inconsistent drivel and evasion.

[Davethedog]

If hes a genuine friend, I don't think you can. You risk offending him if you attack his beliefs.

All you can do is when things come up in conversation is, gently, ask him how he justifies things.

I.e the Sunami, in general just say "why would god have done this" and then put in a couple of question, if he beomes heated just back off, until the next time. Hopefully he will then think about it for himseld.

[Old_Geezer]

Does a belief that relies on blind faith ever need justification ?

Thoughts on Hell ? I can't see it being likely, given the lack of any sensible reason why sentient spirits should be made to suffer for evermore. So I dismiss it as a failed attempt to explain where one might find oneself after bodily death, and an excellent method for getting the masses to do what those in charge consider to be the right thing.

How to deal with the belief ? Unsure what you are asking, but basically you don't. If you wish to have a convivial discussion with a believer then feel free to go ahead. If that doesn't appeal then respect another's right to believe something different to you, and avoid getting het up about us all being different.

[Old_Geezer]

God wouldn't have done it, a god would have just decided they didn't need to interfere in a natural process, or that it would be counterproductive to do so.

[keyplus90]

Doc - I will no doubt answer Birdie's question (you wait and see) but I want to hear it from birdie that Muslims believe or claim that all of the people before Muhammad (pbuh) will go to hell. He believes himself to be expert on few religions and lets see if he can show me THE REASON why he put that up?

[birdie1971]

Keyplus – You do like to claim that I post meaningless things don't you? In fact, if you bother to read my posts properly you'll find that I ask logically valid questions and draw logical conclusions. By the way, this answer applies to Christianity as well...

In answer to your question why I stated, “... it seemed unfair that people go to Hell because they lived before Mohammed revealed the Islamic faith to the people of this planet.”, I would have thought that it is obvious. As a Muslim, your faith tells you that all none Muslims cannot go to Heaven and be with Allah. Correct? If this is so, then there is only one other possibility – people who don't go to Heaven go to Hell.

Since a person cannot believe in a Faith before that Faith it is 'revealed' through a Prophet, it stands to reason that all people who have ever existed before the Islamic religion was revealed to the world are by very definition, none Muslim. You can't be born in 500 BC and be a Muslim. It's a logical absurdity to think otherwise.

Hence all people who were born before Mohammed revealed his message have gone to Hell. The ancient Egyptians were definitely not Muslims; nor were the ancient Greeks; nor were the Incas, nor were the Aztecs; nor were the Myans; nor were Aborigines, etc.

Are you, Keyplus, suggesting that none Muslims can now actually go to Heaven?

[keyplus90]

Birdie – The reason I asked you to re-write your question was that I thought that may give you something more to think about. Of course when you say (and you did say earlier too, including Judaism) that it includes Christianity that tells me a lot.

To answer your question I can simply disagree with you on all about when Islam or Muhammad came, message revealed blah blah blah by saying what Muslims mostly claim (and None Muslim disagree) that Islam did not start with Muhammad (pbuh).

But I would not do that. Instead I would give you few things to think about (although I doubt you would do that).

One of the main foundation of Islamic faith is to believe in all of the prophets before Muhammad (pbuh). No other religion does that, why? Why one cannot be a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus (pbuh) or Moses (pbuh)? Because we believe that all of the Prophets gave the same message what Muhammad (pbuh) did. “Worship only one God”. Although Bible (OT & NT) are not original books revealed to Moses & Jesus but still there are verses confirming that. So very simply Muslims believe that all those people (before Muhammad) who believed and followed the teachings of THEIR PROPHETS at that time would not go to Hell.

People confuse this with Christianity (as you did that too) because according to Christianity Jesus (pbuh) is the saviour. So obviously people before Jesus (pbuh) would not be saved. In Islam we do not believe that Muhammad (pbuh) is the saviour.

[kryptic]

I'm sorry, I've not been on this site long. But keyplus, you are talking rubbish. (and evading questions put to you).
Is it always this way on here?
I was under the impression that this was a question and answer site. Not a question and NOT answer site and EVADE the discussion site.
I'm new and perhaps wrong but this is BS...

[keyplus90]

Kryptic - I can say exactly same so please scroll back and do get back.

[birdie1971]

Keyplus -

“... Muslims mostly claim (and None Muslim disagree) that Islam did not start with Muhammad (pbuh).”

You're right. Non-Muslims do disagree with that point of view and with very good reason – it is impossible to following Islamic teachings before those teachings have been revealed to the world by a Prophet. Please explain to me how an person born in 2000 BC in ancient Egypt can possibly be described as Islamic since they didn't adhere to a single one of the Pillars of Islam; they believed in multiple Gods; they didn't pray five times a day; they didn't ritually fast; they weren't obliged to give away their wealth to the less well of; and they certainly didn't have to make a pilgrimage to Mecca.

They also ate pork and worshipped dogs. They were about as non-Muslim as you can get.

[birdie1971]

Keyplus -

“... So very simply Muslims believe that all those people (before Muhammad) who believed and followed the teachings of THEIR PROPHETS at that time would not go to Hell...”.

If these people didn't go to Hell are you saying that they went to Heaven? If so, is this the same Heaven that is talked about in the Koran? Or is there more than one Heaven?

[Cowtipper]

So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Romans. 14:12

But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. Peter 4:5

So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people. Exodus 32:14

So you get a chance for explaining how you lived. There are passages that contain how men will be judged by their own conscience. Yes, it says you will die- but you will also stand to give account on the day of judgement.

[birdie1971]

Cowtipper:

If everyone has to explain their actions to God (which seems unnecessary since all the world's major religions maintain that God is capable of Omniscience [the ability to know everything infinitely]) then it begs the question:

What's the point of organised religion? What's the point of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc.?


Also, is the God you are referring to the 'Christian' God or (for the sake of argument) the 'Islamic' God? This is an important distinction as the two Gods are quite different (if their respective holy texts are to be believed). For example, Allah originally insisted that followers of the Islamic faith should pray 50 times per day. Mohammed spoke to God and between them they agreed to compromise on ritualistically praying just five time per day. The Christian God does not insist on praying five time per day (according to their holy scriptures).

So when you're answering to God on your day of judgement, which God are you talking to?

[ixion]

I wonder what area God covers.....is it just planet Earth or the entire Universe?

[Cowtipper]

According to what the Muslims taught me its the same God as the Hebrews. Jesus was a prophet according to them but not the son of God. I was told that Abraham's first son Ishmael was the foundation for the tribes in the south in which Mohammed was born therefore also inheriting God's promise to Abraham. I can't even pretend to be an expert on Islam.

[Cowtipper]

Life, the Universe and Everything. Third book of Adams.

[ixion]

Even Essex?

[Cowtipper]

Except Essex and probably the rougher parts of the District of Columbia.