ChatterBank2 mins ago
Can the christian (or muslim for that matter) doctrine of hell
101 Answers
ever be justified?
I have a friend who started to attend a pentecostal church a couple of years ago. Some of the stuff that comes out of his mouth is frankly alarming.
We got talking the other day about the afterlife (which I dont believe in) and he seems to think that it is perfectly justifiable that I will spend my eternity in hell because I dont believe in God. (at least not in the religious sense). I have lost a fair few loved ones over the years, all good people but not religious, and he seems to think that its justified in some way to believe that these folk are burning in a fiery lake. If it wasnt for the fact that I believe he has been brainwashed (and the fact that we have been friends a long time) I might be tempted to clock him one when he comes out with stuff like this.
Any thoughts on hell or on how to deal with this kind of indoctrination?
I have a friend who started to attend a pentecostal church a couple of years ago. Some of the stuff that comes out of his mouth is frankly alarming.
We got talking the other day about the afterlife (which I dont believe in) and he seems to think that it is perfectly justifiable that I will spend my eternity in hell because I dont believe in God. (at least not in the religious sense). I have lost a fair few loved ones over the years, all good people but not religious, and he seems to think that its justified in some way to believe that these folk are burning in a fiery lake. If it wasnt for the fact that I believe he has been brainwashed (and the fact that we have been friends a long time) I might be tempted to clock him one when he comes out with stuff like this.
Any thoughts on hell or on how to deal with this kind of indoctrination?
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keyplus,
I honestly dont know what you are talking about, sorry.
Your god threatens to torture people for eternity if they dont believe in him, thats not free will, thats an ultimatum.
Free will allows others (in the example I cited, my wife) to make mistakes without the FEAR of retribution...especialy eternal retribution that involves unimaginable suffering.
This is NOT the same as punishment for breaking the law of the land.
I honestly dont know what you are talking about, sorry.
Your god threatens to torture people for eternity if they dont believe in him, thats not free will, thats an ultimatum.
Free will allows others (in the example I cited, my wife) to make mistakes without the FEAR of retribution...especialy eternal retribution that involves unimaginable suffering.
This is NOT the same as punishment for breaking the law of the land.
Keyplus90 – Your previous question makes no sense. Option [1] is a valid one (apart from presupposing that you have the authority to 'stop' your wife from leaving you, which of course you don't) but option [2] is meaningless.
I loved your phrase, “.... And for others who either do not believe in God alone or believe in false gods...”.
Can you define a 'false God' for me and tell myself and others how to avoid them please? I'd personally love to know how to spot a false God!
I loved your phrase, “.... And for others who either do not believe in God alone or believe in false gods...”.
Can you define a 'false God' for me and tell myself and others how to avoid them please? I'd personally love to know how to spot a false God!
Continued....
The very idea of Hell is ludicrous. Why would an all knowing, all seeing, all encompassing entity create human beings, give them the free-will to make their own choices and then create the ultimate torture chamber to imprison those people who make the 'wrong' choices? Only a sadistic entity would create such a rigged scenario. If we are to believe in the Jewish/Islamic/Christian God then it's hard to escape the inevitable conclusion that He has set up the game specifically so that some (indeed, most) people end up in Hell. When you also consider that God could, if He so desired, erase Hell from the spiritual plane, but apparently chooses not to do so, then there is only one conclusion that can be drawn:
God insists on everyone participating in a global spiritual lottery. The winners are rewarded with peace and tranquillity and the losers are punished with eternal torture.
The very idea of Hell is ludicrous. Why would an all knowing, all seeing, all encompassing entity create human beings, give them the free-will to make their own choices and then create the ultimate torture chamber to imprison those people who make the 'wrong' choices? Only a sadistic entity would create such a rigged scenario. If we are to believe in the Jewish/Islamic/Christian God then it's hard to escape the inevitable conclusion that He has set up the game specifically so that some (indeed, most) people end up in Hell. When you also consider that God could, if He so desired, erase Hell from the spiritual plane, but apparently chooses not to do so, then there is only one conclusion that can be drawn:
God insists on everyone participating in a global spiritual lottery. The winners are rewarded with peace and tranquillity and the losers are punished with eternal torture.
Continued...
It's a shame that God doesn't bother with such ideas as 'fairness' either. Let's assume that Keyplus is correct and that Islam is the only one true religion. Islam was founded by Mohammed in approximately 610 AD. That must be really annoying for those people, now in Hell, who lived and died before Islam was revealed to the world as the only real 'truth'. All those millions of people condemned to Hell because it took someone like Mohammed several thousand years to tune in to God's celestial channel.
… Or the idea of God and Hell could all be nonsense. Just a massive global scam to rob people of their intellect and free-will and control them by dangling the ever-present fear of eternal damnation in their faces.
It's a shame that God doesn't bother with such ideas as 'fairness' either. Let's assume that Keyplus is correct and that Islam is the only one true religion. Islam was founded by Mohammed in approximately 610 AD. That must be really annoying for those people, now in Hell, who lived and died before Islam was revealed to the world as the only real 'truth'. All those millions of people condemned to Hell because it took someone like Mohammed several thousand years to tune in to God's celestial channel.
… Or the idea of God and Hell could all be nonsense. Just a massive global scam to rob people of their intellect and free-will and control them by dangling the ever-present fear of eternal damnation in their faces.
keyplus, I'm not worried about going to a non existant eternal torture chamber. But I do find it rather worrying that some people actually do believe in it and furthermore seek to show thats its a fitting punishment for non believers. Anyone who believes that its a just punishment to torture souls for all of eternity for the sin of non-belief, displays a rather disturbrd psyche in my opinion.
That's your opinion so just keep it that way. Others may have their opinion too which you may not agree with. So if you believe your opinion is right then that does not mean other's is wrong. However if you have an opinion about other people's opinion being wrong then you need to face and answer the questions asked instead of saying that they do not make sense. Or at least think about the questions in your own spare time and see if you could stick to your opinion that you were not worried.
After reading this I am glad I am not religious and have not had to go through life thinking such horrible things. This world is so beautiful and we are so fortunate to live here. O.K. so horrible things happen but most of them are man-made and now and then Mother Nature gets up and snarls. But most of the time life is lovely. IMO
Keyplus – In my last post I stated that it seemed unfair that people go to Hell because they lived before Mohammed revealed the Islamic faith to the people of this planet.
Look at the ancient Egyptians (ie. those who believed in a multitude of Gods such as Ra, Set, Horus, etc.). These people lived thousands of years before Mohammed was even born. Do you believe that these very real people are now in Hell because Allah didn't reveal Himself to them and/or because they practised polytheism?
What about the peoples of South America? Because of the not insignificant Atlantic Ocean, Islam didn't reach these people until well into the fifteenth century. Since the indigenous peoples of this continent worshipped Gods other than Allah prior to coming into contact with Muslims, do you think that they and all their ancestors are now in Hell? And if so why?
I am genuinely interested in Keyplus' opinion on this matter but I would also be interested to hear from any Catholics or Jewish people on this issue of geographic location and historical timing with regards to eternal damnation.
Look at the ancient Egyptians (ie. those who believed in a multitude of Gods such as Ra, Set, Horus, etc.). These people lived thousands of years before Mohammed was even born. Do you believe that these very real people are now in Hell because Allah didn't reveal Himself to them and/or because they practised polytheism?
What about the peoples of South America? Because of the not insignificant Atlantic Ocean, Islam didn't reach these people until well into the fifteenth century. Since the indigenous peoples of this continent worshipped Gods other than Allah prior to coming into contact with Muslims, do you think that they and all their ancestors are now in Hell? And if so why?
I am genuinely interested in Keyplus' opinion on this matter but I would also be interested to hear from any Catholics or Jewish people on this issue of geographic location and historical timing with regards to eternal damnation.
Keyplus -
In addition to my above enquiry, I noticed you said this, “... Why are you worried then? Hell does not exist for you. So relax. And probably same goes to my old friend birdie.”
I think you misunderstand the seriousness of the question. People who don't believe in God don't believe in Hell. No one's worried about it in the way you mean.
People who don't believe in God are worried about the 'concept' of Hell. That might sound trite but a concept can be a very, very powerful way to manipulate and control people. For instance, 'Heaven' is a concept – no one can prove it exists nor can they prove that it doesn't. It is therefore, a concept; it exists only in the mind.
In addition to my above enquiry, I noticed you said this, “... Why are you worried then? Hell does not exist for you. So relax. And probably same goes to my old friend birdie.”
I think you misunderstand the seriousness of the question. People who don't believe in God don't believe in Hell. No one's worried about it in the way you mean.
People who don't believe in God are worried about the 'concept' of Hell. That might sound trite but a concept can be a very, very powerful way to manipulate and control people. For instance, 'Heaven' is a concept – no one can prove it exists nor can they prove that it doesn't. It is therefore, a concept; it exists only in the mind.
Continued....
However abstract the concepts of Heaven and Hell are, it doesn't stop religiously motivated lunatics attempting to send their ideological opponent to Hell by murdering them. And that's the problem. If you are religious, you believe that even if you're killed in this life, you have another life waiting for you just around the corner. Religion reduces this mortal existence to the equivalent of a dress rehearsal. As such, the importance of mortal existence is diminished; reduced to a mere transitional phase between consciousness and ultimately, everlasting life.
To an atheist such as myself, I find this appalling. I don't believe we have any life after this one is exhausted. As such, I value human life more highly than any religious person ever can and ever will; as I know that this the first and last shot they get at being conscious and alive. No dress rehearsal – this is the real deal and only one you'll get.
However abstract the concepts of Heaven and Hell are, it doesn't stop religiously motivated lunatics attempting to send their ideological opponent to Hell by murdering them. And that's the problem. If you are religious, you believe that even if you're killed in this life, you have another life waiting for you just around the corner. Religion reduces this mortal existence to the equivalent of a dress rehearsal. As such, the importance of mortal existence is diminished; reduced to a mere transitional phase between consciousness and ultimately, everlasting life.
To an atheist such as myself, I find this appalling. I don't believe we have any life after this one is exhausted. As such, I value human life more highly than any religious person ever can and ever will; as I know that this the first and last shot they get at being conscious and alive. No dress rehearsal – this is the real deal and only one you'll get.
My birdie - Without going to all other meaningless things you have written I would only ask you to clarify one you said at the beginning of your post.
///Keyplus – In my last post I stated that it seemed unfair that people go to Hell because they lived before Mohammed revealed the Islamic faith to the people of this planet.////
Where did you get that from? And so far I was ignoring you as most of the time your posts are better ignored because they do not make any sense. But whenever you would claim or put a reference about Islam (baseless of course, as that is your speciality) I would ask you to prove that. So explain that why do you believe what you said there?
///Keyplus – In my last post I stated that it seemed unfair that people go to Hell because they lived before Mohammed revealed the Islamic faith to the people of this planet.////
Where did you get that from? And so far I was ignoring you as most of the time your posts are better ignored because they do not make any sense. But whenever you would claim or put a reference about Islam (baseless of course, as that is your speciality) I would ask you to prove that. So explain that why do you believe what you said there?
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