Ukraine (Again)

[Paigntonian]

How long can, or should, we stand aside while people are being slaughtered? Know all the reasons why we don't want to risk escalation, but if Putin opened extermination camps would that, at least, mean that we would do something?

[Peter Pedant]

Ich - agreed za dety - - the unkrainian is presumably za dity ( seen on some of the cars evacuating - yeah sozza I read all these notices)

BUT..... it looks like unexploded ordnance ? presumably the one that exploded has za dety blown to smithereens

a bit - godless, even the eussians have leedol children

[ichkeria]

If NATO had been dismantled ..

Are you serious?

There's a fair chance many of the countries now sending weapons would have already been invaded.

[ichkeria]

"he unkrainian is presumably za dity ( seen on some of the cars evacuating - yeah sozza I read all these notices)

BUT..... it looks like unexploded ordnance ? presumably the one that exploded has za dety blown to smithereens "

Well the language thing is irrelevant. No one speaks Ukrainian in Kramatorsk (apart from people like the lady's aunt who was "trying to forget I am Russian)
Someone said it was a fragment of an SS-21, but it doesn't look like it to me.
It's definitely a fragment of something though that has gone off bang ...

[ichkeria]

I don't follow the point about NATO at all

The Czech Republic has just sent 10 tanks.
It did not need NATO approval to do that
Ditto all the other NATO countries that have sent stuff, notably Turkey. The UK of course, and indeed others.
NATO exists primarily as a defensive alliance: it's strength comes
from the protection it can afford its own members through collective security.
It was not designed as a weaponry dispenser for other nations.

[Khandro]

//There's a fair chance many of the countries now sending weapons would have already been invaded.//


That might be true, but then again it might not. If say, Poland had been invaded, with or without NATO, America & others would not have stood by & watched, I think.

[ichkeria]

Well, no one has intervened in Ukraine, for the reason that there is no treaty obligation to do so and everyone is worried about nuclear weapons, thus forver giving the lie to the notion that nuclear weapons "keep the peace" because when Biden and others talk of WWIII what they really mean is "nukes".
It's true that under the Budapest agreement, Russia was one of the signatories undertaking Ukraine's territorial integrity and to defend it agains nuclear attack. So if Putin lobbed a nuke at Ukraine he'd have to declare war on himself.

[Peter Pedant]

yeah but no but
the ukrainians have already said that the Budapest agreement shows the Russian word is worth nothing

( er and I wd agree)

[ichkeria]

Erm well yes it is of course but I was having a bit of a laugh.

One reason no one is seriously talking about a "negotiated settlement" unless and until the Russians are desparate.

[Peter Pedant]

well Ich - didja read za dety yourself or see it on the internet?
anyway - after checking myself, ( this is AB you know)
I told the Beeb to get their arrisses into gear and get a Russian specialist to read it.
nothing at 1300 - and they carried it at 1800

So Itchy gets something on the Beeb - well done old fella !

They cut the automatic Russian denials ( carried at 1300) about firing the rocket and didnt even bother to comment: " everyone says: well they would wouldnt they?"

[Peter Pedant]

I think Putin will say - probably after establishing a land corridor to Crimea, " we've won!" and go home....

best guess for a Friday

[Peter Pedant]

Dear Beeb?
no: hello again you doctrinaire marxist tree huggers.....
get a russian speaker to stop hugging his tree for a moment and read what is on the side of the rocket

[ichkeria]

Well done Peter!

I was amazed they’d not picked up on it.
I saw in it on Twitter minutes after the news broke on Ukraine media and was v suspicious of course.

[ichkeria]

Re how the war may end: I’m not sure there’s any longer a convenient exit strategy for Putin: the enormity of the crimes of his military plus the size of Ukraine’s mobilisation not to mention vengeful outrage suggests he won’t be able to withdraw from any claimed victory without facing a serious reckoning.
There are 110,000 now in Ukraine’s territorial defence with thousands more trying to sign up.
It’s the proverbial whirlwind

[Khandro]

The toaster is toasted!

[ichkeria]

From the BBC report:

“ A remnant from a rocket is embedded in grass near the station. It has the Russian words "for children" written on its side. However the phrasing - "za detei" in Russian - suggests it was fired in support of children, rather than aimed at children.”

(!) I am not sure the BBC do irony.
Disappointing :-)

[Peter Pedant]

as a trained epigraphist ( cue horse laugh, Naomi)
the Russian for children is dety - Ukr: dity
but the rocket has a few more characters at the end

is that a case ending - for the children - governed by 3a
or possessive post fix - our children

1975 WHC Frend ( decd) wrote to Robert Anderson ( decd) and said "you were "lucky" you identified more hieroglyphs on the column than I did." ( therefore a difft meaning)
and the 'lucky' one was so outraged that they didnt speak evvuh again! Epigraphists are pretty funny lot as a group. One has been indicted for sellingbits of the bible he er dug up
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9654169/Oxford-don-arrested-theft-biblical-papyrus-fragments-facing-5-million-lawsuit.html

[Peter Pedant]

they had it 1800 last night that it was
for our children
a phrase that the russian separatists ( freedom fighters) use 'against' Ukrainians implying they are baby killers in Donetsk

two liddle letters: so much angst

[ichkeria]

Yes it means “for the children” - presumably as in “in revenge for” but apart from the fact that it’s wrong, they actually managed to kill children and indeed the implication is that they might even have wanted to kill children in revenge. Although of course it’s possible the missile was not fired deliberately at the station.

[sandra4444]

ickkeria 9.18. possible that the missile was not fired? deliberately. Ruddy hell mate didn't think I would hear such coming from you.

That's a bit like looking at every domestic building in Ukraine that's been flattened to the ground and saying it was an accident or a firing miss judgment.

Now that coming from Putin I expect all the time every time.

[Khandro]

ich; Are you saying it was 'friendly fire' ?