How Can You Have A Pregnant Man?

[ToraToraTora]

https://news.sky.com/story/pregnant-man-and-multiracial-handshake-among-new-emojis-being-introduced-this-year-12357013
...Perlease!

[jim360]

We're entering the realm of philosophy here, too. I'm not sure how easy it is to provide a list of how to define something that is at its heart an innate sense of one's own identity and of how one wishes to present in society. But then we're back at the same dispute as before, so...

[pixie374]

We aren't. I only know i identify as a woman, because I am one. Same for everyone else. Any difference can only be stereotyping.
You've avoided my other questions, and I'm only referring to transgender people (over 95%, as you know), not transsexuals or people with body dysmorphia...
But if over 80% of pre-op transsexuals are changing their minds with 2 years of anti- depressants, why is that not a requirement? And what does "living as a woman" actually mean?

[waterboatman]

Thank you for the the welcome :o}
I have missed you all. In touch with some by phone.
I try often to get on here, but but the same old problem arises. No internet. So not a lot I can do. :o{

[pixie374]

Great to see you, boaty. I hope all is well xx

[waterboatman]

Pix, you are definitely a woman. A beautiful one too, as I know for meeting you. ;o}

[jim360]

// ...what reason is there, why men can't feel, identify, wear, behave, however they like- without having to pretend they are women? //

In one sense, at least, there shouldn't be a problem at all, but it's problematic to put things this way for two reasons. Firstly, you can hardly not notice the ridicule that "non-passing" trans people, particularly trans women, are subject to. That requires a change in behaviour on the part of the bullies, of course, but in the meantime it's not unreasonable to expect some people in that position to desire to attract as little attention as possible -- to, if you insist, "pretend" as convincingly as possible.

The second problem is that this seems to ignore the condition of gender dysphoria, which has nothing to do with how others perceive you but is all about how you perceive yourself. Historically, attempts to treat gender dysphoria by telling people that it's all in their head and to get over it (ie, to accept their body as it is and to match their gender to it) have been less than successful.

[waterboatman]

Yes, I'm fine thanks. :o}

[pixie374]

Jim, I addressed dysphoria as separate- and actually, we haven't tried to treat it as the psychological problem it is. If that were the case, we wouldn't have over 80% changing their minds with appropriate treatment.
And your first paragraph, Jim "is" unreasonable and unfair. Men don't trust other men, when they are presented differently. But expect women to. That's maybe the main issue that needs to be sorted.
Thanks boaty- you were lovely :-) x

[waterboatman]

I'll be around if the internet lets me. I try often. I don't know what the problem is, even my g/son can't find it, and he works in IT!

[SparklyKid]

All this nonsense about gender. I was brought up when there were two sexes, ie, gents loos and ladies loos. Boys schools and girls schools.

Pretending you are not what you are to me indicates a mental problem.
Just filling my entry form to Crufts dog show, I identify as a cocker spaniel.

[waterboatman]

Thank you pix xxx We did get on well, didn't we.

[pixie374]

Change Internet providers, boaty- but tell them the problem first... would be good to see you back.
SK, that's still the case. The difference is now, that some people are suggesting your gender should match your sex (stereotypes), but few people want to return to that.

[mushroom25]

// If you want to define women by biology *only* then feel free. //

when an individual is born, they are defined by visible biology - how can it be otherwise? a child that age cannot tell the registrar how they identify, what can be physically seen goes on the legal document.

maybe assigning of infants at birth should cease, and instead allow the legal document to be issued only when the individual can decide for themselves?

[jim360]

Incidentally, your source for the 80% figure? As best as I can tell it's based on the narrow question of children questioning their identity, which isn't really the same as transgender people. I wonder if to an extent this is begging the question, ie if I'm defining trans people as specifically those who don't detransition, but whatever. It's misleading, all the same, to present children exploring their identity as equivalent to "pre-op transsexuals".

[MargoTester]

Lovely to see you Boaty, you've been missed. Hope you're keeping well x

[SparklyKid]

maybe assigning of infants at birth should cease, and instead allow the legal document to be issued only when the individual can decide for themselves?

What utter nonsense !

[Mamyalynne]

Lovely to see you around WBM x

SK, you've been trying for Crufts for some years now - still no joy?

[pixie374]

They aren't children, Jim. They are pre-op, as in started the process. It doesn't involve children at all- and they are rarely given antidepressants.
Mushroom, genitals nearly always are an accurate symptom, except with intersex people sometimes.

[waterboatman]

Good plan pix. I'll look into that.

If I remember, I gave you my phone number. If so, and you still have it, would you like to phone me? I want to tell you something.

[waterboatman]

Thank you mamya xxx :o}
A lot going on.