ChatterBank6 mins ago
We Are Not Doing So Badly
As, alas. there are a few idiots all too ready to make political capital out of an unforseen tragedy it would seem our current UK Government is managing quite well.
Whilst denigrating the efforts of those in power here there were many who held aloft South Korea as a shining example of how to eradicate this virus. Sadly it would appear that it is not yet all over for S. Korea and China are experiencing 4,000 new cases a day. So much for easing lock down in Wuhan. Have they jumped the gun? It is obvious that population density plays a great part as well as many other considerations but it demonstrates that no nation can feel smug or complacent as to how they have fared during this Global emergency.
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Whilst denigrating the efforts of those in power here there were many who held aloft South Korea as a shining example of how to eradicate this virus. Sadly it would appear that it is not yet all over for S. Korea and China are experiencing 4,000 new cases a day. So much for easing lock down in Wuhan. Have they jumped the gun? It is obvious that population density plays a great part as well as many other considerations but it demonstrates that no nation can feel smug or complacent as to how they have fared during this Global emergency.
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Nightingales where left empty for two reasons, very little staff to operate, and to make the NHS look has if they were coping. The Nightingales could, and should have been used for the elderly people being discharged from hospital into care homes, in turn spreading the virus. The problem for the caring for these people was placed onto the shoulders of the care homes, again making the NHS look has if they were coping. A PR stunt that cost lives.
retrocop
Out of interest, how is the UK government not doing badly in the fight against Covid-19?
I would say the Government have made //some// mistakes, but when faced with a novel disease, mistakes will inevitably be made - however, your stance is that the Government is managing ‘quite well’.
What measurements are you taking on board?
Out of interest, how is the UK government not doing badly in the fight against Covid-19?
I would say the Government have made //some// mistakes, but when faced with a novel disease, mistakes will inevitably be made - however, your stance is that the Government is managing ‘quite well’.
What measurements are you taking on board?
It seems to me that this thread intentionally addresses two things. The first is how to deal with the Covid 19 pandemic.
The Common Cold is a constant threat, there is no vaccine available against it and no cure - at best the symptoms can be alleviated a bit. People get it every year and some many times a year - everyone who gets it suffers for a while to a varying degree but everyone, absolutely everyone, recovers with no long term adverse effects. There is no alarm and no perceived danger from the Common Cold, just some degree of economic cost.
Covid 19 is the same except for one important thing, it can cause serious illness which without adequate medical intervention, and sometimes (just sometimes) even with excellent medical help it will kill the host. Covid 19 is also really quite contagious, not as contagious as Noro virus or one or two others, but quite contagious all the same. Two necessities flow from these two characteristics. It is important to take action to slow down the spread of the illness in order to manage the pressure on the health system because in rising numbers patients will need hospitalisation. The other need is for a really capable health system to look after the patients and successfully treat the maximum of patients and minimise the incidence of deaths.
The success of "the system", leadership, health/care services and public protection agencies combined, must be measured by how well the pressure on the health system is managed. The other and more definitive measure is how many patients are lost - those who die rather than recover are the ones who vote for no confidence in the action and/or inaction and failure of "the system".
A country which has a modest case-per-million-of-population number can give themselves a pat on the back. Those countries which have a case-numbers-to-deaths (ratio of total count of each) of as high as 180 have been truly successful and these are the ones which, in the final analysis, can be said to have done well.
Now we should look through the figures on
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and ask ourselves without bias and in all honesty how to judge the second part/aspect of this thread. The UK's scores on the two measures are currently 3909 and 7.159 respectively.
The Common Cold is a constant threat, there is no vaccine available against it and no cure - at best the symptoms can be alleviated a bit. People get it every year and some many times a year - everyone who gets it suffers for a while to a varying degree but everyone, absolutely everyone, recovers with no long term adverse effects. There is no alarm and no perceived danger from the Common Cold, just some degree of economic cost.
Covid 19 is the same except for one important thing, it can cause serious illness which without adequate medical intervention, and sometimes (just sometimes) even with excellent medical help it will kill the host. Covid 19 is also really quite contagious, not as contagious as Noro virus or one or two others, but quite contagious all the same. Two necessities flow from these two characteristics. It is important to take action to slow down the spread of the illness in order to manage the pressure on the health system because in rising numbers patients will need hospitalisation. The other need is for a really capable health system to look after the patients and successfully treat the maximum of patients and minimise the incidence of deaths.
The success of "the system", leadership, health/care services and public protection agencies combined, must be measured by how well the pressure on the health system is managed. The other and more definitive measure is how many patients are lost - those who die rather than recover are the ones who vote for no confidence in the action and/or inaction and failure of "the system".
A country which has a modest case-per-million-of-population number can give themselves a pat on the back. Those countries which have a case-numbers-to-deaths (ratio of total count of each) of as high as 180 have been truly successful and these are the ones which, in the final analysis, can be said to have done well.
Now we should look through the figures on
https:/
and ask ourselves without bias and in all honesty how to judge the second part/aspect of this thread. The UK's scores on the two measures are currently 3909 and 7.159 respectively.
sorry, that figure was misleading, it should be $22bn, the rest is spending on medicines, doctors' fees etc. It's an "up to" figure but derives from 2001.
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It is doing quite well in so much we have never reached 4000 new infections per day un like Chile and certainly better than the USA and their government's denial and response.The UK have mobilised retired medical staff and utilised,again,our armed forces. I assume they have the best medical experts batting on side.
The great funk that infected the weaker elements asked for the impossible. We have A&E staff twiddling their thumbs with SFA to do at the moment and hardly any hospitals reached full bed capacity in their ICU. There are still those who continue,in the comfort of home, to claim their government of choice could do better.
I posed a question to teacake earlier who seems to think she has all the answers and will
criticise at the drop of a hat but cannot tell me how she would prepare for any future unknown crisis round the corner .
I note her criticism is not enough staff to man the Nightingale. London.There was never the need for the Nightingale to be fully staffed but contingency measures were undertaken for emergency measures to be taken under extraordinary times and circumstances. i.e to train redundant airline staff in basic post recovery nursing.
Teacake would like 3 million extra ITU doctors and nurses. Wouldn't the government like them right now as well but if you trained that amount of people at great expense where would you put them and how pay them when the crisis abates.
Considering the Prime Minister was h'ors de combat, for some time and still recovering, people are still trying to score points because he doesn't always attend press briefings.
They have small memories. Unfortunately our government is currently fighting on two fronts and other affairs of state are currently been vigourously fought as well as Covid. Our friends across le manche will not grant a truce on Brexit negotiations which are mid stream and I doubt the Government would wish further delay in any case.I doubt Greece could give two figs about Brexit at the moment as long as they can preserve their tourist industry.
I believe more thought could of gone into the fiscal and economic ramifications of lockdown and could of kept the wheels of commerce and industry still turning for longer and safely.
The great funk that infected the weaker elements asked for the impossible. We have A&E staff twiddling their thumbs with SFA to do at the moment and hardly any hospitals reached full bed capacity in their ICU. There are still those who continue,in the comfort of home, to claim their government of choice could do better.
I posed a question to teacake earlier who seems to think she has all the answers and will
criticise at the drop of a hat but cannot tell me how she would prepare for any future unknown crisis round the corner .
I note her criticism is not enough staff to man the Nightingale. London.There was never the need for the Nightingale to be fully staffed but contingency measures were undertaken for emergency measures to be taken under extraordinary times and circumstances. i.e to train redundant airline staff in basic post recovery nursing.
Teacake would like 3 million extra ITU doctors and nurses. Wouldn't the government like them right now as well but if you trained that amount of people at great expense where would you put them and how pay them when the crisis abates.
Considering the Prime Minister was h'ors de combat, for some time and still recovering, people are still trying to score points because he doesn't always attend press briefings.
They have small memories. Unfortunately our government is currently fighting on two fronts and other affairs of state are currently been vigourously fought as well as Covid. Our friends across le manche will not grant a truce on Brexit negotiations which are mid stream and I doubt the Government would wish further delay in any case.I doubt Greece could give two figs about Brexit at the moment as long as they can preserve their tourist industry.
I believe more thought could of gone into the fiscal and economic ramifications of lockdown and could of kept the wheels of commerce and industry still turning for longer and safely.
// It is doing quite well in so much we have never reached 4000 new infections per day un like Chile ... //
Not so, for two reasons. Firstly, the number of new cases per day isn't the same as the number of official, announced, cases per day -- true everywhere, of course, but since different countries are testing at different rates and according to different rules it can be difficult to compare. Ditto the question of total population, which in this case probably means that the UK's official figures can be seen as more favourable than Chile's if you decide that new cases per head is a better measure.
Secondly, and more importantly, the UK regularly announced 4,000+ new cases daily in April and early May, so it's factually incorrect.
Not so, for two reasons. Firstly, the number of new cases per day isn't the same as the number of official, announced, cases per day -- true everywhere, of course, but since different countries are testing at different rates and according to different rules it can be difficult to compare. Ditto the question of total population, which in this case probably means that the UK's official figures can be seen as more favourable than Chile's if you decide that new cases per head is a better measure.
Secondly, and more importantly, the UK regularly announced 4,000+ new cases daily in April and early May, so it's factually incorrect.
That's why I distrust most figures we are currently bombarded with.
Whoever and wherever they chuck figures at you there will always be another who will discount them and tell you their's are better.
It would appear that the old saying that statistics are like lamp posts. They help support drunks but not much illumination. :-(
Whoever and wherever they chuck figures at you there will always be another who will discount them and tell you their's are better.
It would appear that the old saying that statistics are like lamp posts. They help support drunks but not much illumination. :-(
The second issue this post addresses is "How are we doing ?". When considering that, one assumes the spread was of a similar nature among every population in the world, by age, gender, vulnerability, etc.
We are doing spectacularly well if we approach this the traditional way: "World's best", "World beating", etc., etc. The simple declaration is made that the UK is No.1, better than anywhere/one else, in the UK the UK is inevitably the world's best in everything and every way.
Because this is never borne out when one peers over the mental wall to see what happens in the real world, all who dare point out any of the multitude of international comparisons is spoiling the perception to the point of being heretics. Interest in comparison is very, very low in the UK - hear no comparison, see no comparison, speak no comparison becomes as much a national requirement here as going to the mosque five times a day in one or two other places.
But reality refuses to be bent. The simple fact is that the UK has a relatively high spread of the virus but the NHS was not totally overwhelmed everywhere. That can be regarded as a success but uncomfortable questions remain as to opportunities missed, mistakes, etc. - could it have been much better handled, maybe as well as by the best ? Should those who died outside hospital have been hospitalised (in some cases kept where they were in hospital) ?
Where the UK's score/record is rather appalling (one of the very worst) is on the matter of deaths. The UK failed dramatically when it came to saving seriously ill patients, other countries did so much better that the comparison is a painful revelation. Even if the UK had done twice as well as it has it would still be in the bottom half (below 15 cases for each death).
It is no good saying others have done worse, what earthly good is that ? The questions will not need anyone to scream them at us, why is it that the system could not keep more people alive and lost the fight so often ? This is a large scale tragedy, a UK tragedy and one that, if we look over the wall, was avoidable. No amount of emotional (or pretentious) clapping is going to cover the facts, no amount of World Class chest beating is going to hide them. Resorting to accusations that, unlike the UK, other countries don't know how to keep records, can't count as well, have fewer people living in flats, etc., etc. is a sign of denial and desperation. If the UK's population is inherently less capable of facing an illness then the system can be expected to be geared to deal with that. Once ill in hospital one can surely reasonably expect the system to be as capable of saving the patient as other systems are of saving theirs - or is that an unreasonable assumption ?
Anyone who takes the plugs out of the ears, the blinkers away from the eyes is going to still feel uncomfortable - unless he/she simply reverts to the familiar refrain: They are all against me, I'm still champion. Denial is the only alternative to being shocked. Go ahead and say that all is well, we are still No.1. That way, not only will nothing improve, things are bound to get worse because every downward slip and backward slide will be prevented from being put right.
We are doing spectacularly well if we approach this the traditional way: "World's best", "World beating", etc., etc. The simple declaration is made that the UK is No.1, better than anywhere/one else, in the UK the UK is inevitably the world's best in everything and every way.
Because this is never borne out when one peers over the mental wall to see what happens in the real world, all who dare point out any of the multitude of international comparisons is spoiling the perception to the point of being heretics. Interest in comparison is very, very low in the UK - hear no comparison, see no comparison, speak no comparison becomes as much a national requirement here as going to the mosque five times a day in one or two other places.
But reality refuses to be bent. The simple fact is that the UK has a relatively high spread of the virus but the NHS was not totally overwhelmed everywhere. That can be regarded as a success but uncomfortable questions remain as to opportunities missed, mistakes, etc. - could it have been much better handled, maybe as well as by the best ? Should those who died outside hospital have been hospitalised (in some cases kept where they were in hospital) ?
Where the UK's score/record is rather appalling (one of the very worst) is on the matter of deaths. The UK failed dramatically when it came to saving seriously ill patients, other countries did so much better that the comparison is a painful revelation. Even if the UK had done twice as well as it has it would still be in the bottom half (below 15 cases for each death).
It is no good saying others have done worse, what earthly good is that ? The questions will not need anyone to scream them at us, why is it that the system could not keep more people alive and lost the fight so often ? This is a large scale tragedy, a UK tragedy and one that, if we look over the wall, was avoidable. No amount of emotional (or pretentious) clapping is going to cover the facts, no amount of World Class chest beating is going to hide them. Resorting to accusations that, unlike the UK, other countries don't know how to keep records, can't count as well, have fewer people living in flats, etc., etc. is a sign of denial and desperation. If the UK's population is inherently less capable of facing an illness then the system can be expected to be geared to deal with that. Once ill in hospital one can surely reasonably expect the system to be as capable of saving the patient as other systems are of saving theirs - or is that an unreasonable assumption ?
Anyone who takes the plugs out of the ears, the blinkers away from the eyes is going to still feel uncomfortable - unless he/she simply reverts to the familiar refrain: They are all against me, I'm still champion. Denial is the only alternative to being shocked. Go ahead and say that all is well, we are still No.1. That way, not only will nothing improve, things are bound to get worse because every downward slip and backward slide will be prevented from being put right.
karl, you didn't return to your last anti British rant:
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