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Well We Can All Stop Blaming The Governement Now The Lunatics Have Taken Over The Asylum...
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What will our fate be?
What will our fate be?
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“Quite apart from the fact that the first sentence is simply wrong”
Well, it would be in your opinion, because your opinion is the polar opposite of mine.
You, of course are always right and anyone with an opposing opinion, wrong.
I don’t care what the EU wants, and I don’t care about what the remainers want because they lost.
My feelings. My opinion. My choice. None of which will change. None of which makes one of us right and one of us wrong.
But only one of us is so superior and condescending not to realise that.
Well, it would be in your opinion, because your opinion is the polar opposite of mine.
You, of course are always right and anyone with an opposing opinion, wrong.
I don’t care what the EU wants, and I don’t care about what the remainers want because they lost.
My feelings. My opinion. My choice. None of which will change. None of which makes one of us right and one of us wrong.
But only one of us is so superior and condescending not to realise that.
Khandro
Changing the leader would not fix anything. Though May is utterly terrible, the problem lies with the HoC and the Country being divided. A new leader would not be in any better position to deliver Brexit.
Also, May does not have to go if she doesn’t want to. And it seems she wants to hold on.
As leader, there is no good reason for her to call another General Election (she got her fingers burnt on the last one), and not delivering on the last referendum before having a rerun referendum would be suicide for the Conservatives.
Changing the leader would not fix anything. Though May is utterly terrible, the problem lies with the HoC and the Country being divided. A new leader would not be in any better position to deliver Brexit.
Also, May does not have to go if she doesn’t want to. And it seems she wants to hold on.
As leader, there is no good reason for her to call another General Election (she got her fingers burnt on the last one), and not delivering on the last referendum before having a rerun referendum would be suicide for the Conservatives.
No we can't. This is a Tory Government created fiasco from beginning to end. David Cameron couldn't run away fast enough when he realised what he'd done and it's all been steadily down hill from there since.
Tbh, I'm done with humouring the 'we won' brigade. No you didn't, there was nothing to 'win', you got a minute majority in an advisory referendum which could just as easily have gone remain, it's likely a majority as small as that would change back and forth day to day.
People have now realised that for all their bold talking, their stirring Dunkirk spirit speeches, that the Brexit backers have not the slightest idea how to actually implement what they wanted without causing huge damage to the country which is why the cancel Article 50 petition has nearly 6 million signatures and rising.
Saying the Government can't now be blamed is beyond ludicrous.
Tbh, I'm done with humouring the 'we won' brigade. No you didn't, there was nothing to 'win', you got a minute majority in an advisory referendum which could just as easily have gone remain, it's likely a majority as small as that would change back and forth day to day.
People have now realised that for all their bold talking, their stirring Dunkirk spirit speeches, that the Brexit backers have not the slightest idea how to actually implement what they wanted without causing huge damage to the country which is why the cancel Article 50 petition has nearly 6 million signatures and rising.
Saying the Government can't now be blamed is beyond ludicrous.
"which in turn were entirely due to what Brexiters wanted" actually no, more, "which in turn were entirely due to what Brexit must have in order to be Brexit; and which Brexiters understood and therefore supported"
I think you'll find I said anyone who actually supported the deal would be Remainers. Ultra ones as it happens since it ties us in powerless. But that hints were cheap and so may not be all they seem. One must judge actions.
I think you'll find I said anyone who actually supported the deal would be Remainers. Ultra ones as it happens since it ties us in powerless. But that hints were cheap and so may not be all they seem. One must judge actions.
Jim, //the nature of the deal owes a lot to Theresa May's own red lines, which in turn were entirely due to what Brexiters wanted.//
There are times when I could be forgiven for thinking you really believe what you say – but they’re only brief. May’s ‘own red lines; as I’ve no doubt you know, are the product of her determination to hoodwink the majority of the electorate – who let’s not forget voted to Leave. If the Remainers hate her 'deal', they have only themselves to blame for supporting the prospect of a 'deal'. They’ve brought it upon themselves.
Calicogirl, //it's acting in the best interests of the country//
In your opinion …. Not in mine.
There are times when I could be forgiven for thinking you really believe what you say – but they’re only brief. May’s ‘own red lines; as I’ve no doubt you know, are the product of her determination to hoodwink the majority of the electorate – who let’s not forget voted to Leave. If the Remainers hate her 'deal', they have only themselves to blame for supporting the prospect of a 'deal'. They’ve brought it upon themselves.
Calicogirl, //it's acting in the best interests of the country//
In your opinion …. Not in mine.
Be interesting to know how a Labour Government would have dealt with it?
Well for starters we wouldn't have been given a referendum, so I suppose there is nothing more to answer.
But for interest if they had granted us a referendums either to stay in the EU or come out of the EU, have any of you Labour supporters any idea?
Well for starters we wouldn't have been given a referendum, so I suppose there is nothing more to answer.
But for interest if they had granted us a referendums either to stay in the EU or come out of the EU, have any of you Labour supporters any idea?
So this fiasco is in the country's best interests YMB?
We are the laughing stock of the world, we have a PM hanging on my her fingernails refusing to go, it's virtually civil war amongst all the parties, and no-one in authority knows what to do, partly because it's a ridiculous remit and partly because they can't set aside feathering their own nests for five minutes to actually do the jobs they were elected to do.
It's widely held that leaving, never mind about crashing out as some of you wish, will be massively damaging and destabilising economically and socially, so tell me how this is in the country's best interest?
We are the laughing stock of the world, we have a PM hanging on my her fingernails refusing to go, it's virtually civil war amongst all the parties, and no-one in authority knows what to do, partly because it's a ridiculous remit and partly because they can't set aside feathering their own nests for five minutes to actually do the jobs they were elected to do.
It's widely held that leaving, never mind about crashing out as some of you wish, will be massively damaging and destabilising economically and socially, so tell me how this is in the country's best interest?
People seem to have lost clarity. There are only three possible outcomes ...
* Remain
* No deal Brexit
* Something in between
You can have any number of changes of PM, elections or re-referendums you like, but it all has to lead, sooner or later, to one of those three options.
The something in between as it stands is the deal that has been negotiated by the people we voted in and mandated to negotiate it. Everybody is united around it. The only problem is that nobody likes it - everybody is united in their dislike.
The fundamental problem we have is that our Parliament is not built for this. For a start, it's hung - because we the people have no particular faith in any party at the moment. But also, Brexit cuts clean across party lines, with the further left and further right supporting it, and the centrists against it. So nothing can get a majority, not even a compromise.
As for the present negotiation by committee, what a mess. It needs a strong leader, not a committee, but we the people have voted in a parliament in which it's impossible to be a strong leader - only a strong sniper. It's not all our fault. Our options in both 2015 and 2017 were so pathetic that it's hardly surprising we voted as we did.
It is a big problem. Personally, I think the deal is the right move. It's a step away from where we are now. We can all unite in our dislike of it. It's a change. And it may be a stepping stone to something further away from where we are, or a holding point to see whether the EU changes sufficiently for us to stay at that deal or even move back towards the EU.
What's not in doubt on any side is that elements of the EU stink and need change. It was Cameron's great hope that he could get that change with the threat of the referendum. He failed. But enough has happened since, both with Brexit and within the remaining EU states, that some much-needed reform could now take place.
So, I say let's move, let the process play out, see what the EU does while it's playing out, and then possibly move again.
* Remain
* No deal Brexit
* Something in between
You can have any number of changes of PM, elections or re-referendums you like, but it all has to lead, sooner or later, to one of those three options.
The something in between as it stands is the deal that has been negotiated by the people we voted in and mandated to negotiate it. Everybody is united around it. The only problem is that nobody likes it - everybody is united in their dislike.
The fundamental problem we have is that our Parliament is not built for this. For a start, it's hung - because we the people have no particular faith in any party at the moment. But also, Brexit cuts clean across party lines, with the further left and further right supporting it, and the centrists against it. So nothing can get a majority, not even a compromise.
As for the present negotiation by committee, what a mess. It needs a strong leader, not a committee, but we the people have voted in a parliament in which it's impossible to be a strong leader - only a strong sniper. It's not all our fault. Our options in both 2015 and 2017 were so pathetic that it's hardly surprising we voted as we did.
It is a big problem. Personally, I think the deal is the right move. It's a step away from where we are now. We can all unite in our dislike of it. It's a change. And it may be a stepping stone to something further away from where we are, or a holding point to see whether the EU changes sufficiently for us to stay at that deal or even move back towards the EU.
What's not in doubt on any side is that elements of the EU stink and need change. It was Cameron's great hope that he could get that change with the threat of the referendum. He failed. But enough has happened since, both with Brexit and within the remaining EU states, that some much-needed reform could now take place.
So, I say let's move, let the process play out, see what the EU does while it's playing out, and then possibly move again.
// May’s ‘own red lines; as I’ve no doubt you know, are the product of her determination to hoodwink the majority of the electorate ... //
In this case I think you're doing her a massive disservice. Not that I'm inclined to stand up for Theresa May but I don't think it's even remotely accurate to suggest that all along she's tried to hoodwink people into thinking she was for Brexit. The point is that the Withdrawal Agreement is essentially a consequence of those red lines -- specifically, the two entirely contradictory ones that said that the UK must instantly leave the Customs Union at the same time as insisting that under no circumstances must there be a Hard Border on the island of Ireland. The chief issue with the Withdrawal Agreement, the "Backstop", arose as a result of trying to meet these twin objectives, and for no other reason. All along, various remain supporters have been pointing this out, and all along, Theresa May and other Brexit supporters refused to listen. Apparently, they still refuse.
All this nonsense about May being secretly a Remainer and secretly thwarting Brexit is just that, and, with respect to Bigbad, that's the issue I have with his opinion: ie, that it's based on a factual misunderstanding. Of course if he then goes on to have no regard for the EU or for half the population of the UK, then, sure, those are feelings he is entitled to. And I am entitled to call them what they are in kind.
In this case I think you're doing her a massive disservice. Not that I'm inclined to stand up for Theresa May but I don't think it's even remotely accurate to suggest that all along she's tried to hoodwink people into thinking she was for Brexit. The point is that the Withdrawal Agreement is essentially a consequence of those red lines -- specifically, the two entirely contradictory ones that said that the UK must instantly leave the Customs Union at the same time as insisting that under no circumstances must there be a Hard Border on the island of Ireland. The chief issue with the Withdrawal Agreement, the "Backstop", arose as a result of trying to meet these twin objectives, and for no other reason. All along, various remain supporters have been pointing this out, and all along, Theresa May and other Brexit supporters refused to listen. Apparently, they still refuse.
All this nonsense about May being secretly a Remainer and secretly thwarting Brexit is just that, and, with respect to Bigbad, that's the issue I have with his opinion: ie, that it's based on a factual misunderstanding. Of course if he then goes on to have no regard for the EU or for half the population of the UK, then, sure, those are feelings he is entitled to. And I am entitled to call them what they are in kind.
"You should care about what Remainers want because they form around half the country (not to mention around 3/4 of Parliament)."
Then I'll ask again, Jim (one day I'll be graced with an answer):
Who would have cared about the Leavers had the result been 52:48 to remain. And how would their "care" have manifested itself?
Then I'll ask again, Jim (one day I'll be graced with an answer):
Who would have cared about the Leavers had the result been 52:48 to remain. And how would their "care" have manifested itself?
// If the Remainers hate her 'deal', they have only themselves to blame for supporting the prospect of a 'deal'. //
Also, again, what is this?! There is *no* future possible for the UK in which we don't come to some proper and meaningful arrangement with the EU, in terms of border arrangements, trade, shared intelligence, fishing rights, economic and foreign policy, and so on and on and on. Being a member for 40 years has seen each side integrate with each other on many levels. None of that can be undone easily, or quickly, or without some sensible replacement. It's a nonsense. It really is.
As to Remainers bringing it on ourselves, that too is utterly absurd. We wanted none of this.
Also, again, what is this?! There is *no* future possible for the UK in which we don't come to some proper and meaningful arrangement with the EU, in terms of border arrangements, trade, shared intelligence, fishing rights, economic and foreign policy, and so on and on and on. Being a member for 40 years has seen each side integrate with each other on many levels. None of that can be undone easily, or quickly, or without some sensible replacement. It's a nonsense. It really is.
As to Remainers bringing it on ourselves, that too is utterly absurd. We wanted none of this.
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