Brexit

[gulliver1]

DOMINIC RAAB , GOES!.

[jim360]

And now it seems impossible to get a deal that's favourable, and the very fact that everyone signed up to it -- before jumping, that is -- should tell you all you need to know about what damage "just walking away" will do to the country.

[Old_Geezer]

What it tells me is the number of folk without the ability to cope with change, and no confidence in themselves nor others to build a better future. They feel it's safer in the EU cage.

[emmie]

and a cage it is, so who else is going i wonder.

[naomi24]

Jim, //You're welcome to pretend that "the losers" would have kept quiet, //

I'm not pretending. Farage might have launched a campaign for a second referendum, but the electorate wouldn't have been in a position to attempt, and in the main succeed, to stymie the result as you lot have done with this. You have a good leader - a remainer devoid of scruples - but the irony is that if a deal is reached, although the leavers won't be getting what they voted for, neither will the remainers. Thanks to them, instead of a clean, sensible, break as it should have been, the whole thing is a complete and utter mess.

[jim360]

Theresa May isn't my leader. I didn't vote for her, I didn't support her then, and I don't support her now. But she is *not* treasonous, or duplicitous, or treacherous, or anything else. She is just the leader at a time when anyone else who led your cause ran away from the responsibility.

[naomi24]

//But she is *not* treasonous, or duplicitous, or treacherous, or anything else. //

She's all of those things.

[Old_Geezer]

She's incompetent at negotiation and willing to offer deals that don't achieve the decision made by the public, way over her own "red lines", so the name calling is nearer the truth than one might wish.

[jim360]

You're welcome to continue to believe that, but my point is that anyone at the table would have come back with more or less the same thing. The truth, all along, has been that the UK was not in the position it needed to be for the fantasies of Brexit supporters to come true. It isn't duplicitous to accept reality.

[HansUrbancka]

Esther McVey, the Work and Pensions Secretary Has also Resigned.

Three down and possibly more to follow.

Hans.

[naomi24]

Jim, we should have fulfilled our obligations and walked away ... and yes, we were in a position to do that - but if it makes you feel better you keep telling yourself that what's happened would have happened anyway. This farce is the result of a duplicitous Remainer who has no scruples about betraying the electorate, leading Brexit, and the rest of the Remainers equally eager to see the electorate betrayed. The whole thing is sickening.

[emmie]

with staff leaving the Cabinet, is there anyway to turn this around, a vote of no confidence in the PM perhaps?

[Khandro]

jim //and the very fact that everyone signed up to it -- before jumping, //
That simply isn't true; late last night after May's Downing Street speech, it was announced that they had broken up the meeting in disagreement - nobody "signed" anything.

[emmie]

so its not a done deal ^^

[jim360]

Naomi, how about you explain how you go about achieving that, rather than just stating it as a blunt fact? It's clearly not true -- leaving the EU is not simply a matter of walking away, as you either well know or or blind enough not to see, but there's no point in claiming it unless you can explain *how* to achieve that. This is the problem that Brexiters can't, and never have been able to, address.

No, I don't want to see the electorate betrayed. I want the best thing for the UK. At this point, if anyone thinks that the best thing for the UK is either crashing out into a no-deal recession, or accepting this "farce" -- as, to be fair, you rightly call it -- then they have another think coming. It's not duplicity to say so.

[Jackdaw33]

Will May still be PM this p.m?

[jim360]

Yes, but I will have no idea how!

[naomi24]

Jim, //leaving the EU is not simply a matter of walking away//

That wasn’t my suggestion. I said we should have fulfilled our obligations and walked away. If that was as impossible as you seem to think, “No deal is better than a bad deal” wouldn’t have been an option.

//I don't want to see the electorate betrayed.//

You’re seeing it and have been for the past couple of years - and you're supporting it.

[spathiphyllum]

"She's all of those things."

I agree, her Mr also has his fingers in a lot of pies. They seem malicious.

[jim360]

What are our obligations? Do you know what they are? It's nowhere near as simple as you keep insisting.

I'm sorry that you think I'm supporting betrayal of the electorate, but -- to be clear -- that will only be possible if, with a second referendum, the electorate chooses to undo its decision. And if that happens, there is no betrayal anyway. The electorate cannot betray itself, for it owes nothing to its past. That is the essence of democracy.

[Khandro]

There was a film in the 60's featuring George Segal called, Bye Bye Braverman, I remember;
https://order-order.com/2018/11/15/suella-braverman-resigns/