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http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Society-and-Cul ture/Religion-and-Spirituality/Question450140. html
Sorry for the long delay but I'll try to answer the points raised the other week.
Sorry for the long delay but I'll try to answer the points raised the other week.
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Breathe again Wizard! Restricted access on the works computer, plus a seven hour breakdown prevented me from returning. So sorry.
However - The O.T. is incredible when comparing it to todays acceptable standards - but how does it stand up to its contemporary cultures? I think that in many ways it was far more humane than them.
You can't compare their civilisation with us in the 21st century - can you?
However - The O.T. is incredible when comparing it to todays acceptable standards - but how does it stand up to its contemporary cultures? I think that in many ways it was far more humane than them.
You can't compare their civilisation with us in the 21st century - can you?
One important point to note when looking at the O.T. is the fact that God is not just a more enlightened version of us, He is utterly Holy. In fact, in Revelation, the angels cry out to Him, "Holy, Holy, Holy."
Holiness is a concept we can hardly grasp, being so imperfect ourselves. However, if we do try to understand it, then we can begin to see how God who is Holy, will not tolerate sin, and will punish it, in ways that we find abhorrent, but He will completely destroy sinners and siful nations. The O.T. gives us a glimpse of that. But, all is not lost, the N.T. tells us about Gods saving grace, and His plan for our salvation.
Holiness is a concept we can hardly grasp, being so imperfect ourselves. However, if we do try to understand it, then we can begin to see how God who is Holy, will not tolerate sin, and will punish it, in ways that we find abhorrent, but He will completely destroy sinners and siful nations. The O.T. gives us a glimpse of that. But, all is not lost, the N.T. tells us about Gods saving grace, and His plan for our salvation.
"The O.T. is incredible when comparing it to todays acceptable standards - but how does it stand up to its contemporary cultures? I think that in many ways it was far more humane than them. You can't compare their civilisation with us in the 21st century - can you?"
I can't - because obviously the Bible was aimed at comparatively primitive cultures and not the 21st century. It was written by men for their contemporaries without the ability to imagine life thousands of years on.
Unfortunately, you do not have the luxury of that get out clause, because the Bible is quite clear that these laws are not time limited. Indeed Jesus himself explicitly states, "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished" - Matthew 5:18?
If you say that slavery is abhorant, you are explicitly deny the words of your saviour, Jesus Christ, the Son of God and Galilean Pogo Stick Champion 15 AD, picking and choosing which bits of the Bible you believe in.
Thus the whole basis of your faith is exposed not as edifice but as artifice.
I can't - because obviously the Bible was aimed at comparatively primitive cultures and not the 21st century. It was written by men for their contemporaries without the ability to imagine life thousands of years on.
Unfortunately, you do not have the luxury of that get out clause, because the Bible is quite clear that these laws are not time limited. Indeed Jesus himself explicitly states, "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished" - Matthew 5:18?
If you say that slavery is abhorant, you are explicitly deny the words of your saviour, Jesus Christ, the Son of God and Galilean Pogo Stick Champion 15 AD, picking and choosing which bits of the Bible you believe in.
Thus the whole basis of your faith is exposed not as edifice but as artifice.
Hi Theland, gosh, this thread is certainly a mixture! As I said on the other thread, I am convinced the soul survives death, and one of the reasons is that I have experienced things I cannot explain any other way. Additionally, as you know Theland, I don't believe the biblical god is God. God (or more precisely, it) is much bigger than that. It doesn't demand adoration and it isn't afflicted with that sad human trait - jealously; neither is it cruel. It is everything in nature and the universe - a spiritual love of everyone and everything. I suppose you could say my beliefs lean towards the teachings of Buddhism more than anything else.
Incidentally, you say that when looking at the OT the fact is that god is more than just an enlightened version of us, and he is utterly holy, and yet you zoom forward to Revelation to 'prove' your point. I wonder why you need to do that? Seems to me he wasn't quite so holy in OT times, and if he will punish sin in such dire and cruel ways, he's not so loving now either. This is a being that very clearly relies upon instilling fear into humankind to gather his following and to keep them at heel. How can anyone in this day and age profess to love and worship such a creature? This bully seems to have very little to recommend him, and more human failings than most humans, so why would they? It makes no sense at all.
Incidentally, you say that when looking at the OT the fact is that god is more than just an enlightened version of us, and he is utterly holy, and yet you zoom forward to Revelation to 'prove' your point. I wonder why you need to do that? Seems to me he wasn't quite so holy in OT times, and if he will punish sin in such dire and cruel ways, he's not so loving now either. This is a being that very clearly relies upon instilling fear into humankind to gather his following and to keep them at heel. How can anyone in this day and age profess to love and worship such a creature? This bully seems to have very little to recommend him, and more human failings than most humans, so why would they? It makes no sense at all.
I think most people who believe in the biblical God personify the being to give it form.
Why the human form or any shape at all?
Emotion is energy in motion, so love from a true God and not the biblical kind goes beyond human perception.It flows through everything without the need for aggrandizement from loyal subjects.
Fear breeds hatred and segregation which is within the pages of a book that should be doing the opposite.
To me, a true god of love is just that.
Why the human form or any shape at all?
Emotion is energy in motion, so love from a true God and not the biblical kind goes beyond human perception.It flows through everything without the need for aggrandizement from loyal subjects.
Fear breeds hatred and segregation which is within the pages of a book that should be doing the opposite.
To me, a true god of love is just that.
Naomi - It seems to me that your idea of God is that He is not a personal God, but simply some life force.
That sort of god does not deal with the problem of sin. Only a God with perfect justice can do that. Your god seems to have no consequences for sin.
Waldo - Yes there are difficult passages in the Bible, but the collective wisdom of the sages over many years have not ever dismissed God as a person. I bow to their wisdom.
That sort of god does not deal with the problem of sin. Only a God with perfect justice can do that. Your god seems to have no consequences for sin.
Waldo - Yes there are difficult passages in the Bible, but the collective wisdom of the sages over many years have not ever dismissed God as a person. I bow to their wisdom.
Morning Waldo - The main thrust of the Bible is God centred and there is nothing wrong with the central theme that runs through it, culminating in our salvation and the completion of Gods' plan.
That is agreed by all believers and has been down the years.
If any of them had the problems with scripture that you have, I'm sure they would have abandoned the idea of God long ago.
You obsession with the apparent contradictions and difficulties digress from the Bibles important message, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
That is agreed by all believers and has been down the years.
If any of them had the problems with scripture that you have, I'm sure they would have abandoned the idea of God long ago.
You obsession with the apparent contradictions and difficulties digress from the Bibles important message, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Mibs - (or dare I say it, "Mibsy"), I was puzzled by your comments on the thread below, where you decry God because of uncertainty, but embrace science, which is just as uncertain in answering the fundamental questions of life.
Like flipping a coin really.
http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Society-and-Cul ture/Religion-and-Spirituality/Question453075. html
Like flipping a coin really.
http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Society-and-Cul ture/Religion-and-Spirituality/Question453075. html
If you allow, Theland, that religion is just as 'uncertain as science' on the fundamental issues of life, then where is the justification for the intrusion of religion in the framework of society ?
Why is there the ubiquitous clerical talking-head wheeled out to comment on facets of life and society ? Why should any more weight be given to their argument/point of view than a scientist/expert/person-with-relevant-experience ?
I appreciate that there are many, like you, who draw comfort from their faith and are willing to embrace all parts and passages from the Bumper Book of Fairy Tales.........but there are many who only experience the interference of religion. Many who will have their lives curtailed by the interference of religion............but pacified by the promise of 'Jam Tomorrow'.............
Why is there the ubiquitous clerical talking-head wheeled out to comment on facets of life and society ? Why should any more weight be given to their argument/point of view than a scientist/expert/person-with-relevant-experience ?
I appreciate that there are many, like you, who draw comfort from their faith and are willing to embrace all parts and passages from the Bumper Book of Fairy Tales.........but there are many who only experience the interference of religion. Many who will have their lives curtailed by the interference of religion............but pacified by the promise of 'Jam Tomorrow'.............
Jack - I can well understand the frustration shared by many including yourself, when the religious, "talking heads", are rolled out to pontificate on matters that have little or nothing to do with their supposed beliefs, yet whose opinions are somehow revered because of their position in the various churches.
Yes, in many ways I share your frustration and would like to see them sticking to their calling of evangelism, rather than social engineering.
Yes, in many ways I share your frustration and would like to see them sticking to their calling of evangelism, rather than social engineering.
"Yes there are difficult passages [snip] bow to their wisdom."
Who are these sages? Clearly a great many people have dismissed God as a person.
"The main thrust of the Bible is God centred and there is nothing wrong with the central theme that runs through it, culminating in our salvation and the completion of Gods' plan."
Well, that's not even vaguely true. Many people would be able to give extensive arguments about why the central tenet of God's plan as described in the Bible is wrong in many different ways. You should know - you've been involved in many such arguments on here.
"That is agreed by ... [snip] abandoned the idea of God long ago."
That's a rather silly notion, isn't it? By definition those who have abandonded the idea of God are not believers, so arguing 'all believers have a shared understanding of the central message of the Bible, ergo there can't be any major issues with the Bible' is just woefully poor logic.
"You obsession with the apparent contradictions and difficulties digress from the Bibles important message, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
Digresses? Er, no it doesn't; not in the slightest. My 'obsession' as you call it, is very much essential to why I can give absolutely no credence to the notions of salvation etc as revealed in the Bible; I've read the thing and it's by turn nonsensical and immoral and unethical which would be fine but for the fact that my life (to a reasonably small degree, in my case) and the lives of many other people are directly made less good by the people who insist on following the stories of a bunch of people whose understanding of and conception of the world is about on a par with an average modern seven year old.
Do forgive me if I am passionate about debunking this crock of cack that you live your life by. I believe Jesus tells you that it would be the correct thing to do.
Who are these sages? Clearly a great many people have dismissed God as a person.
"The main thrust of the Bible is God centred and there is nothing wrong with the central theme that runs through it, culminating in our salvation and the completion of Gods' plan."
Well, that's not even vaguely true. Many people would be able to give extensive arguments about why the central tenet of God's plan as described in the Bible is wrong in many different ways. You should know - you've been involved in many such arguments on here.
"That is agreed by ... [snip] abandoned the idea of God long ago."
That's a rather silly notion, isn't it? By definition those who have abandonded the idea of God are not believers, so arguing 'all believers have a shared understanding of the central message of the Bible, ergo there can't be any major issues with the Bible' is just woefully poor logic.
"You obsession with the apparent contradictions and difficulties digress from the Bibles important message, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
Digresses? Er, no it doesn't; not in the slightest. My 'obsession' as you call it, is very much essential to why I can give absolutely no credence to the notions of salvation etc as revealed in the Bible; I've read the thing and it's by turn nonsensical and immoral and unethical which would be fine but for the fact that my life (to a reasonably small degree, in my case) and the lives of many other people are directly made less good by the people who insist on following the stories of a bunch of people whose understanding of and conception of the world is about on a par with an average modern seven year old.
Do forgive me if I am passionate about debunking this crock of cack that you live your life by. I believe Jesus tells you that it would be the correct thing to do.
Waldo, Absolutely right.
Theland, no my god does not deal with the 'problem' of sin, nor does it threaten, and neither does it demand adoration - and yes, it is a life force. Sin is a concept created by man and I abhor the word since it was created only to instil fear - and that ploy appears to have succeeded in the weak minded, or those afraid enough for their own souls to believe it - and bearing in mind the nature of the biblical god, fear can be the only possible reason that they do believe it. Man is his own master and the results of his conduct in life must be left to his own conscience.
Theland, no my god does not deal with the 'problem' of sin, nor does it threaten, and neither does it demand adoration - and yes, it is a life force. Sin is a concept created by man and I abhor the word since it was created only to instil fear - and that ploy appears to have succeeded in the weak minded, or those afraid enough for their own souls to believe it - and bearing in mind the nature of the biblical god, fear can be the only possible reason that they do believe it. Man is his own master and the results of his conduct in life must be left to his own conscience.
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