Koran

[atalanta]

Islam is so deeply divided, all Muslims seem to claim the Koran supports their side of the argument, so I reckon it's about time I read it for myself.
Can anyone recommend a particularly good translation ?

[Khandro]

[naomi24]

Khandro, excellent! That warrants separate discussion.

[keyplus90]

First of all atalanta only asked for a simple advice. But Naomi always tries to confuse things. I will say a few things here and see if anyone could see any common sense in that.

1 – Quran was not delivered as a book in “One Go” and it was revealed in almost 23 years. So was it possible to put it in book form each year? What would happen to the new revelations? Especially at that time when they did not have printers or computers like we do now and a new edition can be printed whenever something new needs to be added in and with a flick of a finger.

2 – Muhammad (pbuh) passed away around 6 months after the last chapter was revealed. Did he have enough time to put it in a book form within 6 months? No,

3 – Quran was complete written and arranged on different material but not in book form by the time Muhammad (pbuh) passed away. But mainly they relied on their memory as in every Ramazan (Ramadhan) Quran was recited to the point revealed before that Ramazan, just as it is done in millions of Masjids across the world. And during the last Ramazan of Prophet’s (pbuh) life it was recited twice to make sure there is no mistake.

4 – Earlier leaders after Prophet Abubakar and Umar (RA) decided to keep it as it is, but Third Caliph Usman (aka Othman, RA)decided to put it in book form as during the Battles a good number of Hufaaz (people who knew by heart) were killed. Again no printers so they had to handwrite 4 copies. Hence one of those copies is still in Istanbul and one I believe is in Uzbekistan.

Finally, please let someone read it and decide. Otherwise there are so many websites saying what I said and what Naomi said. But one needs common sense to know.

[keyplus90]

Yet one more common sense thing after reading a few more responses.

Translation of any book will never be able to satisfy what original book says. And translating a religious book is always more difficult. Quran talks about almost every aspect of life on earth. Then Quran talks about many things that world still does not know about. So anyone who tries translating should have at least three abilities.

1 – Command on Arabic, 2 – Command on the language he/she is translating it to, and 3 – Knowledge about every aspect of life. How many people have that?

So the translator just puts in what he/she believes it means or has the knowledge of.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, until you arrived and posted misleading information, Atalanta got simple advice from me.

//Hence one of those copies is still in Istanbul and one I believe is in Uzbekistan.//

They are incomplete.

//Then Quran talks about many things that world still does not know about.//

How many more times are you going to say that? It's silly. We know everything the Koran talks about – we can read what it says. How can it possibly talk about anything the world doesn’t know about? Think about it.



Did you watch the video Khandro posted? I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on it.

[Khandro]

Keyplus; and 4, an understanding that the original Koran was written for people, and by people, of another place in another time, with very different values and mores to modern Western ones.
Have you listened to what Hamad Abdel-Samad has to say in the above link on this subject? He speaks of Germany where he lives, but it is applicable to all European societies when he says that though 'Muslims' can be part of western society, Islam can not and gives compelling reasons why this is so.

[vetuste_ennemi]

To plagiarise and adapt Abdel-Samad: the two forms of argument [I see being conducted here] represent not parallel modes of discourse, but asymmetric ones.

[keyplus90]

Naomi – You asked my views on the clip Khandro posted. I would have left it to your words soon after that clip was posted. However as you asked, in my mind Hamad did not say anything that Muslims across the world haven’t heard before, Hamad is not the first and definitely not the last person to have left Islam and have views he has, Hamad is not the first and would not be the last person who picked on a handful things but ignored a whole lot just to justify his own view or belief. There are many like him who left Islam and many more who embraced it. It is Allah’s will and only he knows who will end up where, as for the human they have free will to choose whatever they believe is right. And that is as much I would say at this point.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, //in my mind Hamad did not say anything that Muslims across the world haven’t heard before//

You may have heard it before - but you don't listen.

[vetuste_ennemi]

I wonder if Khandro understands my contempt for someone who is so evidently impervious to reason.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Don't strike me off your Xmas card list, Naomi. I didn't mean you.

[Theland]

Quran? What a crock!
Why the need to study it?
It's message is perfectly understandable in one minute flat.
At least the Argos catalogue is free.

[naomi24]

Theland, explanation needed. (I'm assuming you've read it).

[Theland]

"By their fruits you shall know them."
And if that is not enough of an explanation, then the news, and The Religion Of Peace website will do the trick.

[naomi24]

So you haven't read it.

[Theland]

No.neither have I read Mein Kampf, and I dislike Nazis.
So do I have to study corruption and evil before I reject evil?
And of course, there are scholars who have studied it for the benefit of non Muslims, to warn us of its evil.
I guess ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc have read it, and put it into practice.
Nuff said?

[Khandro]

Keyplus: Hamad abdel-Samad does not ask you to leave your religion, far from it, in fact he says how he respects it (as do I for that matter) all he is asking is that Muslims need to change their mindset from a medieval outlook to fit modern society which you in many ways depend on and are nurtured by. It's not perfect, but one thing is certain Islam won't change circumstances, and the naïve dreams of Islamists who believe that somehow they are about to change the world to fit their outdated views by building bigger and bigger mosques - financed by dwindling oil money - or worse by violence, will soon (perhaps very soon) see their plans in ashes.

[vetuste_ennemi]

The text will confirm your prejudices, Theland. But be fair to both, i.e. yourself and Islam: read the book.

[naomi24]

Theland,// ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Shabab etc have read it,//

Indeed they have – and yes, they are evil - but don’t tell me that the bible is the ultimate guide to morality because it isn’t. Far from it.

[nailit]

//but don’t tell me that the bible is the ultimate guide to morality because it isn’t. Far from it.//
Now that would make a good thread of its own. Would be interesting to see the bible believers trying to make a case for the bible being a moral guide.