Body & Soul1 min ago
What makes atheists think their wiser than everyone else?
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prompted by an earlier question.
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The very same belief and commitment that makes believers think that they are wiser than atheists. At the end of the day believers and non-believers exhibit exactly the same traits and commitment as each other. Both are convinced that they are right and everyone else is wrong. There's actually no difference between them except for the details of their belief.
Not true Andy. Atheism equates to absence of belief - and, logically, that cannot possibly be 'belief'. That said, if evidence of a god were forthcoming, atheists freely admit they would change their opinions - something that those committed to a belief would find very difficult to do. There is no comparison.
Andyvon - “... atheists DO have a belief...”
Please don't think I'm 'having a go' at you specifically with my following post. It is meant as a general refutation to the suggestion that there is some kind or corollary between an atheist's non-belief in god and a theist's belief in god.
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Atheists do not have a 'belief' in the non-existence of god per se. That's akin to saying that a person has a 'belief' in the non-existence of fairies or that they have a 'belief' in the non-existence of unicorns. To say that atheists have a 'belief' in the non-existence of god is really just an exercise in semantics.
In this context, the word 'belief' is a linguistic weapon used by theists to try and legitimise their own ultimately illogical position. They regularly apply the word 'belief' to atheists in a desperate attempt to prove that they themselves are not being illogical and that the atheists are contrarian.
The fact that the theists routinely fail to see the obvious flaw in their reasoning goes some way to demonstrate my earlier point – people who have a religious belief are no less intelligent than those who don't but their grasp of logic (in matters of religion) is stymied by their own religious world-view. In essence, they are trained to accept that the illogical teachings of their religion is the truth. Hence, they view others who do not share their beliefs as delusional and/or arrogant despite the fact that they themselves have absolutely no proof whatsoever that their particular preferred deity even exists.
Please don't think I'm 'having a go' at you specifically with my following post. It is meant as a general refutation to the suggestion that there is some kind or corollary between an atheist's non-belief in god and a theist's belief in god.
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Atheists do not have a 'belief' in the non-existence of god per se. That's akin to saying that a person has a 'belief' in the non-existence of fairies or that they have a 'belief' in the non-existence of unicorns. To say that atheists have a 'belief' in the non-existence of god is really just an exercise in semantics.
In this context, the word 'belief' is a linguistic weapon used by theists to try and legitimise their own ultimately illogical position. They regularly apply the word 'belief' to atheists in a desperate attempt to prove that they themselves are not being illogical and that the atheists are contrarian.
The fact that the theists routinely fail to see the obvious flaw in their reasoning goes some way to demonstrate my earlier point – people who have a religious belief are no less intelligent than those who don't but their grasp of logic (in matters of religion) is stymied by their own religious world-view. In essence, they are trained to accept that the illogical teachings of their religion is the truth. Hence, they view others who do not share their beliefs as delusional and/or arrogant despite the fact that they themselves have absolutely no proof whatsoever that their particular preferred deity even exists.
Does not religion depend on what earlier people wrote, thought, and say they witnessed?
Scientist do not believe that something must be so because earlier people wrote, thought, and say they witnessed. If they did, we would still think that the Sun went around the Earth, among other beliefs which our ancestors held.
Does your religion require you to believe things which your ancestors believed to be true, sith? Does it require you to reject evolution, for example?
Scientists now, and in the past, may have religious beliefs. There may come a time when those beliefs conflict with the evidence before them. Galilieo had that problem. In the end, the leaders of his religion had to admit, as they tactfully explained it, there had been unsound interpretation of the holy book.
Do you expect any such misinterpretation of your religion's holy writings ?
Scientist do not believe that something must be so because earlier people wrote, thought, and say they witnessed. If they did, we would still think that the Sun went around the Earth, among other beliefs which our ancestors held.
Does your religion require you to believe things which your ancestors believed to be true, sith? Does it require you to reject evolution, for example?
Scientists now, and in the past, may have religious beliefs. There may come a time when those beliefs conflict with the evidence before them. Galilieo had that problem. In the end, the leaders of his religion had to admit, as they tactfully explained it, there had been unsound interpretation of the holy book.
Do you expect any such misinterpretation of your religion's holy writings ?
there are two differnt meanings of 'belief'
one is about a deepseated fundamantal system of living - religion
the other is just a word of grammar - such as i believe i am feeling a bit peckish, i believe my friend likes coldplay, i believe my car is about to breakdown..
so in that sense atheists do believe... they believe that they dont believe in god.
one is about a deepseated fundamantal system of living - religion
the other is just a word of grammar - such as i believe i am feeling a bit peckish, i believe my friend likes coldplay, i believe my car is about to breakdown..
so in that sense atheists do believe... they believe that they dont believe in god.
I wonder what fate holds in store for those who leave the Islamic faith?
"This commentary (Tafsir) comes from a famous Pakistani scholar, Maulana Mufti Muhammad Shafi. Some of today’s Muslim fundamentalists regard it as one of the finest commentaries available in English. On verse 2:217:
In short, the fate of an apostate is worse than that of an original disbeliever. This is why Jizyah can be accepted from an original disbeliever while a male apostate who does not return to Islam is killed. If the apostate is a woman, she is imprisoned for life. The reason is that their conduct insults Islam and the insult of such a binding authority deserves no less a punishment.[9]"
"This commentary (Tafsir) comes from a famous Pakistani scholar, Maulana Mufti Muhammad Shafi. Some of today’s Muslim fundamentalists regard it as one of the finest commentaries available in English. On verse 2:217:
In short, the fate of an apostate is worse than that of an original disbeliever. This is why Jizyah can be accepted from an original disbeliever while a male apostate who does not return to Islam is killed. If the apostate is a woman, she is imprisoned for life. The reason is that their conduct insults Islam and the insult of such a binding authority deserves no less a punishment.[9]"
Joko is of course completely correct, as anyone should be able to see.
Quite why this constant argument crops up that atheists have no belief in anything I really fail to see when it's clear that they are all happy to say
'I have no belief in god existing'.
It's irrational therefore to say that they hold no 'belief'. Whilst it's true that atheism is not a religion, it's still a belief- whether they like it or not.
Quite why this constant argument crops up that atheists have no belief in anything I really fail to see when it's clear that they are all happy to say
'I have no belief in god existing'.
It's irrational therefore to say that they hold no 'belief'. Whilst it's true that atheism is not a religion, it's still a belief- whether they like it or not.
Living within ones means applies no less to living within the context of ones knowledge based on or logically deduced from an understanding of ones own first hand observations and experience.
An atheist is someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or gods, with or without reason not withstanding. Nothing more can be meaningfully said about an atheist without further qualification. Atheism qua atheism does not specify what if any beliefs a given atheist might hold, only that they do not believe in the existence of a god or gods, however one might or might not attempt to define such a supposed entity.
Atheists are not inherently wiser than anyone else, however unwise, irrational and potentially destructive in consequence it might be to believe in the arbitrary without or in spite of reason, especially with regards to an alleged creator and overseer of reality.
An atheist is someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or gods, with or without reason not withstanding. Nothing more can be meaningfully said about an atheist without further qualification. Atheism qua atheism does not specify what if any beliefs a given atheist might hold, only that they do not believe in the existence of a god or gods, however one might or might not attempt to define such a supposed entity.
Atheists are not inherently wiser than anyone else, however unwise, irrational and potentially destructive in consequence it might be to believe in the arbitrary without or in spite of reason, especially with regards to an alleged creator and overseer of reality.
Nox, perhaps you need a simpler explanation... Atheists do not believe in god, ie. they have no belief in god. No belief is not disbelief, it is lack of belief. Atheists do not believe that god does not exist because that presupposes the existence of the concept of a god being able to exist. Since the concept of a god existing makes no sense to an atheist then it is not possible to to believe in the presence or absence of a god. This is a concept that believers are unable to understand because they have not been exposed to it when their brains were adaptable enough. So if you don't understand it don't worry, you probably never will along with millions of others.:-)
Jomifl- you have made the mistake of taking me for one of your 'believers' because I find your pedantic, patronising ways tiresome. I do not subscribe to the existance of any superhuman being responsible for the creation of earth etc etc etc- but I do think that people who do should be free to express their opinions without being ridiculed. Nothing in any of your 'explainations' has altered my opinion that atheists do in fact have a belief in their lack of belief, but thanks ever so for trying to dumb it down enough for me to understand- I promise to try harder to understand what you tell me, just as soon as I've burned away another few thousand brain cells to get me on a roughly even keel with you.
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