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The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.
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While I'm not suggesting that the AB atheists are the worst, this line might explain why the atheist v theist debate seems so one sided.
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Sandy, //I never was a believer.//
Perhaps not, but I question whether or not your early training has left you with a lingering doubt or two. ;o)
Cupid, I suspect the number of religious people on Answerbank far outweighs the Atheist contingent, but most of them are reluctant to fight God’s corner. Therefore, you are hardly justified in joining Sith in his victim mentality by accusing the Atheists, who are willing to stand up and be counted, of ‘ganging up’.
Mibs, well I must confess, when I wrote :
//Rarely unreasonable - but often irrational//….
…I was talking about love --- but then you asked your question, and I thought “Now he comes to mention it”….. ;o)
Sith, //you do not want to believe it//
For people who have looked at the evidence without pre-conceived ideas, non-belief is not a choice. It is a rational conclusion.
//So if it is not a religion than why get involved in a religious thread passing of atheism like it is a religion//
You’ve been told many times why atheists get involved in religious threads – and no one is passing off atheism as a religion. Far from it.
//dont you have anything better to do?//
What would you like us to do? Go away and keep quiet, perhaps?
Perhaps not, but I question whether or not your early training has left you with a lingering doubt or two. ;o)
Cupid, I suspect the number of religious people on Answerbank far outweighs the Atheist contingent, but most of them are reluctant to fight God’s corner. Therefore, you are hardly justified in joining Sith in his victim mentality by accusing the Atheists, who are willing to stand up and be counted, of ‘ganging up’.
Mibs, well I must confess, when I wrote :
//Rarely unreasonable - but often irrational//….
…I was talking about love --- but then you asked your question, and I thought “Now he comes to mention it”….. ;o)
Sith, //you do not want to believe it//
For people who have looked at the evidence without pre-conceived ideas, non-belief is not a choice. It is a rational conclusion.
//So if it is not a religion than why get involved in a religious thread passing of atheism like it is a religion//
You’ve been told many times why atheists get involved in religious threads – and no one is passing off atheism as a religion. Far from it.
//dont you have anything better to do?//
What would you like us to do? Go away and keep quiet, perhaps?
Sith - “... So if it [atheism] is not a religion than why get involved in a religious thread passing off atheism like it is a religion...”.
As Naomi has said, no one is trying to suggest that atheism is a religion. The matter of whether or not atheism is a religion has been done to death on AB. It simply isn't. It is the very antithesis of a religion.
As for the rest of your argument - it's nonsense. Since you appear to think that atheists shouldn't be discussing religion as they themselves are not religious, I can only assume that you also approve of the following:
a) Vegetarians shouldn't talk about the animal slaughter industry;
b) People who chose not to vote shouldn't talk about politics;
c) Heterosexuals shouldn't talk about gay rights;
d) Men shouldn't discuss the emancipation of women;
etc.
What you singularly fail to understand or appreciate is that religion affects each and every one of us directly. From the rejection of rational science in our classrooms, to terrorist bombings by radical fundamentalists, to ground breaking medical research, to being able to manage and dictate the expiration of your own life; it doesn't matter whether you believe in god or not. Religion affects us all and touches upon every aspect of our existence and that is why atheists are interested in religion.
As Naomi has said, no one is trying to suggest that atheism is a religion. The matter of whether or not atheism is a religion has been done to death on AB. It simply isn't. It is the very antithesis of a religion.
As for the rest of your argument - it's nonsense. Since you appear to think that atheists shouldn't be discussing religion as they themselves are not religious, I can only assume that you also approve of the following:
a) Vegetarians shouldn't talk about the animal slaughter industry;
b) People who chose not to vote shouldn't talk about politics;
c) Heterosexuals shouldn't talk about gay rights;
d) Men shouldn't discuss the emancipation of women;
etc.
What you singularly fail to understand or appreciate is that religion affects each and every one of us directly. From the rejection of rational science in our classrooms, to terrorist bombings by radical fundamentalists, to ground breaking medical research, to being able to manage and dictate the expiration of your own life; it doesn't matter whether you believe in god or not. Religion affects us all and touches upon every aspect of our existence and that is why atheists are interested in religion.
//What i do not understand is that atheists critisize religion all they want and get involved when it is in fact not even a religion. Im not saying that, many others have//
i am not saying it is a religion. If you read back i am just clearly stating a point.
Birdie, if religion affects each and every one of us, how come whenever a muslim or any other religion try to speak or give a point, atheists jump in straight away not even giving them a chance to answer properly by bombarding them with question after question not even allowing them time to answer it, and when they do you never seem to agree. However you always expect us to agree with you, and if we do not you start talking about fairy tales and god being made up just because someone does not agree with you. If your point is the case, then clearly a simple point should be that atheists should be listening to religious answers and arguments, not making fun, ignoring or straight away dismissing them.
//Not at this moment in time. What's your excuse?//
im not sure about you, but i do have a job birdie.
i am not saying it is a religion. If you read back i am just clearly stating a point.
Birdie, if religion affects each and every one of us, how come whenever a muslim or any other religion try to speak or give a point, atheists jump in straight away not even giving them a chance to answer properly by bombarding them with question after question not even allowing them time to answer it, and when they do you never seem to agree. However you always expect us to agree with you, and if we do not you start talking about fairy tales and god being made up just because someone does not agree with you. If your point is the case, then clearly a simple point should be that atheists should be listening to religious answers and arguments, not making fun, ignoring or straight away dismissing them.
//Not at this moment in time. What's your excuse?//
im not sure about you, but i do have a job birdie.
Sith, //clearly a simple point should be that atheists should be listening to religious answers and arguments,//
We are listening for religious answers and arguments – but you’re not saying anything.
You’re sitting at a computer – you can say what you like. We’re hardly able to pull the plug and stop you – so if you want to put your case for God, stop complaining - and do it.
We are listening for religious answers and arguments – but you’re not saying anything.
You’re sitting at a computer – you can say what you like. We’re hardly able to pull the plug and stop you – so if you want to put your case for God, stop complaining - and do it.
Sith, The reason that 'atheists' bombard you with questions is because your answers are rarely clear and unambiguous. Quite often they are blatantly evasive and often confused and sometime show that you didn't understand the question.This is not a question, it is a statement, so you don't need to respond.
Sandy I'm answering this because as an AB member,and and atheist I seem to fall into your question category.
From your statement about your question I'm assuming tht you think all atheists are either dithery or rabid.
I am neither.
I stay out of the way of religion mainly. I would like it to stay out of my way as a mark of mutual respect. I can only assume that the reason the debate is so one-sided (depending which *side* you take) is that all atheists ask is for proof of God before they accept religious doctrine into their everyday lives. I'm being presumptious here. That's what *I* want if I'm honest.
From my end of things I just hear my parents saying "It just IS!" or "Because I said so!"
From your statement about your question I'm assuming tht you think all atheists are either dithery or rabid.
I am neither.
I stay out of the way of religion mainly. I would like it to stay out of my way as a mark of mutual respect. I can only assume that the reason the debate is so one-sided (depending which *side* you take) is that all atheists ask is for proof of God before they accept religious doctrine into their everyday lives. I'm being presumptious here. That's what *I* want if I'm honest.
From my end of things I just hear my parents saying "It just IS!" or "Because I said so!"
Sith - “... if religion affects each and every one of us, how come whenever a muslim or any other religion try to speak or give a point, atheists jump in straight away not even giving them a chance to answer properly by bombarding them with question after question....”
You have posted a 'non sequitur'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur
Please read the Wikipedia link for further information as to why your above statement makes no logical sense.
You have posted a 'non sequitur'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur
Please read the Wikipedia link for further information as to why your above statement makes no logical sense.
Sith - “... However you always expect us to agree with you, and if we do not you start talking about fairy tales and god being made up just because someone does not agree with you...”
I don't expect you to agree with me at all. In fact, since I am an atheist and your are a theist, I always expect us to disagree to some degree. However, what I do expect is a rational argument within the confines of the matter being discussed. What I also expect and what any reasonable person should expect when debating is a little humility and huge amount of honesty. For instance, if a person overtly contradicts themselves, they should admit the contradiction. If a person is found to be telling lies or stretching the truth, they should admit it.
That is all I ask.
I don't expect you to agree with me at all. In fact, since I am an atheist and your are a theist, I always expect us to disagree to some degree. However, what I do expect is a rational argument within the confines of the matter being discussed. What I also expect and what any reasonable person should expect when debating is a little humility and huge amount of honesty. For instance, if a person overtly contradicts themselves, they should admit the contradiction. If a person is found to be telling lies or stretching the truth, they should admit it.
That is all I ask.
Sith -
Correction to my above link. This is the one I meant to post...
http://en.wikipedia.o..._sequitur_%28logic%29
Correction to my above link. This is the one I meant to post...
http://en.wikipedia.o..._sequitur_%28logic%29
so what is your definition of a rational argument as in every thread i have been involved in i have always answered the question with my opinion. What, to you, is a rational argument? do i have to agree with you? accept your beliefs? please, tell me, as i have answered the question with my beliefs and opinions including evidence and links to threads if nessecary.
//We are listening for religious answers and arguments – but you’re not saying anything. //
i have so clearly answered the questions in every thread i answer. If you cannot understand the answer, or do not want to listen to them or whatever your excuse, that is in no way my problem. Other people do understand. They may not belief my views, like i do not belief so many of yours, but they understand. If you cannot, than that is so clearly your problem, and it is pathetic how you are trying to blame it on me. makes me laugh.
//You’re sitting at a computer – you can say what you like. We’re hardly able to pull the plug and stop you – so if you want to put your case for God, stop complaining - and do it.//
the same applies to you naomi. youre sitting at a computer or a laptop or whatever. You could say whatever you like. To be honest youre almost on here all the time. So in any case, what you just said mainly applies to you, apart from the god thing of course.
//We are listening for religious answers and arguments – but you’re not saying anything. //
i have so clearly answered the questions in every thread i answer. If you cannot understand the answer, or do not want to listen to them or whatever your excuse, that is in no way my problem. Other people do understand. They may not belief my views, like i do not belief so many of yours, but they understand. If you cannot, than that is so clearly your problem, and it is pathetic how you are trying to blame it on me. makes me laugh.
//You’re sitting at a computer – you can say what you like. We’re hardly able to pull the plug and stop you – so if you want to put your case for God, stop complaining - and do it.//
the same applies to you naomi. youre sitting at a computer or a laptop or whatever. You could say whatever you like. To be honest youre almost on here all the time. So in any case, what you just said mainly applies to you, apart from the god thing of course.
//We need a special section for "stirring up long drawn out and ultimately pointless arguments" ☺//
Having grown up with and privy to countless discussions between believers concerning religious doctrine, I came to realise that, "...long drawn out and ultimately pointless arguments", was inevitably and invariably integral to discussions concerning matters of faith. The one thing I did learn from quietly observing such discussions is that such an outcome comes with the territory . . . and this is the place.
The only difference I see between the current discussions and those I witnessed in my youth is an attempt by atheists to inject and infuse some rationality into the debate . . . with admittedly only marginal success. Yet I find it much more interesting to observe the outcome of what happens when faith and reason collide; a rather fascinating study in applied logic in contrast with the art of gentle persuasion. Call me "Stupid", but unintentionally and inadvertently this has become one of my favourite sights on the inter-net, not from a lack of those willing to question their premises, I assure you.
Having grown up with and privy to countless discussions between believers concerning religious doctrine, I came to realise that, "...long drawn out and ultimately pointless arguments", was inevitably and invariably integral to discussions concerning matters of faith. The one thing I did learn from quietly observing such discussions is that such an outcome comes with the territory . . . and this is the place.
The only difference I see between the current discussions and those I witnessed in my youth is an attempt by atheists to inject and infuse some rationality into the debate . . . with admittedly only marginal success. Yet I find it much more interesting to observe the outcome of what happens when faith and reason collide; a rather fascinating study in applied logic in contrast with the art of gentle persuasion. Call me "Stupid", but unintentionally and inadvertently this has become one of my favourite sights on the inter-net, not from a lack of those willing to question their premises, I assure you.
Sith - “... every thread i have been involved in i have always answered the question with my opinion. What, to you, is a rational argument? do i have to agree with you? accept your beliefs?...”
A 'rational argument' is one that makes logical sense. What do you understand by the term 'rational argument'?
Your above statement is rather foolish. If you had read my posts you would know that I don't expect you to accept by beliefs. What I expect you to do is be honest and admit when you have contradicted yourself or been found to be stretching the truth. This is not a matter of me or anyone else misunderstanding your posts – we understand them completely and what we see are lies and contradictions. For instance, on a previous thread which mentioned children marrying grown men you stated that you disagree with such a practice unless the child agrees to the union. I (and others) pointed out that a child cannot give their consent to such a union. When I (and others) asked you about the apparent contradiction you refused to accept that any contradiction existed and simply *shouted* this rather ridiculous reply, “... I HAVE NOT ANSWERED IT THE WAY YOU WOULD LIKE IT. I HAVE ANSWERED WITH MY OPINION... ONLY YOUR OPINION IS CORRECT” [06:59 Thu 19th Apr 2012]
http://www.theanswerb...estion1120710-10.html
Since you're calling me and others 'pathetic', please allow me to retort. What is truly lamentable is your assertion that it is somehow our fault that you're incapable of holding a rational debate.
A 'rational argument' is one that makes logical sense. What do you understand by the term 'rational argument'?
Your above statement is rather foolish. If you had read my posts you would know that I don't expect you to accept by beliefs. What I expect you to do is be honest and admit when you have contradicted yourself or been found to be stretching the truth. This is not a matter of me or anyone else misunderstanding your posts – we understand them completely and what we see are lies and contradictions. For instance, on a previous thread which mentioned children marrying grown men you stated that you disagree with such a practice unless the child agrees to the union. I (and others) pointed out that a child cannot give their consent to such a union. When I (and others) asked you about the apparent contradiction you refused to accept that any contradiction existed and simply *shouted* this rather ridiculous reply, “... I HAVE NOT ANSWERED IT THE WAY YOU WOULD LIKE IT. I HAVE ANSWERED WITH MY OPINION... ONLY YOUR OPINION IS CORRECT” [06:59 Thu 19th Apr 2012]
http://www.theanswerb...estion1120710-10.html
Since you're calling me and others 'pathetic', please allow me to retort. What is truly lamentable is your assertion that it is somehow our fault that you're incapable of holding a rational debate.
//because on here there are more atheists. and they gang up.//
this was my answer. straight to the point birdie and its not stretching the truth. It meets those criteria.
//I (and others) pointed out that a child cannot give their consent to such a union.//
Why not? Maybe not in this country. What you have to understand is that they live in their own countries. They do not live in Britain. They have their own rules and do not need to follow our rules. They may think some of our rules are stupid. Yes, as i have said before there are punishments like the death penalty if the girl is raped or whatever. However the main point is that i come from Britain. I was born in Britain. so what the hell does all this happening in other countries have to do with me. the way you talk makes it look like for some bizarre reason im responsible.
You talk about all these child marriages and whatever like they happen all the time. Its like a plane crash. If a plane crashes it is all over the media. This makes it seem like it happens often when in fact it is the safest transport method. There are way more car crashes but they do not report this nearly as much, as a plane crash is rare, so when it does happen it is a big thing. The same with this. How often does this happen? almost never. its just when it does the media picks up on it straight away and start stretching the truth.
I know naomi is going to start about womens rights and all that which, believe it or not, i do agree with completely. However i just have this to say. If women are so mistreated in islam than how come so many convert?
http://www.telegraph....verting-to-Islam.html
http://www.hizb.org.u...omen-convert-to-islam
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12075931
http://www.dailymail....converting-Islam.html
ive even given you a thread from a non muslim women on the opposite point of view so you cannot say im being biased. i know this will make no difference but its evidence.
this was my answer. straight to the point birdie and its not stretching the truth. It meets those criteria.
//I (and others) pointed out that a child cannot give their consent to such a union.//
Why not? Maybe not in this country. What you have to understand is that they live in their own countries. They do not live in Britain. They have their own rules and do not need to follow our rules. They may think some of our rules are stupid. Yes, as i have said before there are punishments like the death penalty if the girl is raped or whatever. However the main point is that i come from Britain. I was born in Britain. so what the hell does all this happening in other countries have to do with me. the way you talk makes it look like for some bizarre reason im responsible.
You talk about all these child marriages and whatever like they happen all the time. Its like a plane crash. If a plane crashes it is all over the media. This makes it seem like it happens often when in fact it is the safest transport method. There are way more car crashes but they do not report this nearly as much, as a plane crash is rare, so when it does happen it is a big thing. The same with this. How often does this happen? almost never. its just when it does the media picks up on it straight away and start stretching the truth.
I know naomi is going to start about womens rights and all that which, believe it or not, i do agree with completely. However i just have this to say. If women are so mistreated in islam than how come so many convert?
http://www.telegraph....verting-to-Islam.html
http://www.hizb.org.u...omen-convert-to-islam
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12075931
http://www.dailymail....converting-Islam.html
ive even given you a thread from a non muslim women on the opposite point of view so you cannot say im being biased. i know this will make no difference but its evidence.
