Is There Really a Devil?

[Elderman]

Is there basis for believing that a wicked "spirit" creature exists? Or is this belief unfounded?

[sandyRoe]

Lucifer was second only to God in all creation. But when he said: 'I will not serve.', God cast him out.
Perhaps his greatest achievement is in fooling many seemingly rational people into thinking there is neither God or devil.

[birdie1971]

Sandy - “Lucifer was second only to God in all creation...”

Let us assume for a moment that god is real (it's a stretch, I know). As Naomi rightly points out, if god wanted to eliminate the devil then he could do so without any trouble whatsoever. Unless of course, god isn't as powerful as we have all been told and there are some things that god can't do. But if there are some things that even god cannot do then it begs an avalanche of questions which lead the faithful into a real quagmire.

“... Perhaps his [Lucifer's] greatest achievement is in fooling many seemingly rational people into thinking there is neither God or devil.”

It is far more rational to conclude that neither the devil (I hate calling him 'Lucifer' since giving him a name suggests the possibility that he might actually exist – which he doesn't) nor god exists and no such trickery is involved. The idea that people who deny the existence of the devil have been fooled by him is so improbable and simplistic in its reasoning that it is little more than a childish deception. When the argument is broken down to its bare bones, what you and others are saying is...

Believer: “Do you believe in the existence of the devil?”
Non-Believer: “No.”
Believer: “Ha Ha! That's because the devil wants you to think he doesn't exist! And he's succeeded! Get out of that one! I win. And I'm now going to stick my fingers in my ears and hum really loudly until you go away.... Hmmmmmmmmmm”

[birdie1971]

Elderman - “... Can some wicked, invisible power be influencing humans to these acts of violence?...”

Yes. That power is called religion.

[WyeDyed]

There is no mention of the devil in the old testament and only makes a limited appearance in the Gospels.
The question remains: If God created everything and only wants man to be good, then why did he create the devil? A question that no theist has answered in a rational way.
(Don't get involved, don't get involved... oh bugger!)

[sandyRoe]

Mark 5:11-13. The Gadarene Swine.
I'm becoming increasingly fearful that devils haunt the halls of AB.

[sandyRoe]

God granted Mankind freewill. But freewill where there was only one option, goodness, wouldn't be much of a gift.
So, Lucifer is actually God's creature, a catspaw that enables creation to develop as designed.

[Snafu03]

I certainly beleive there is a driving force behind alot of evil acts. Many crimes throughout history make one think 'what is the motive behind that?' Hitler, James Bulgers child killers - no rationale; evil is suggested into weak minds.

[NOX]

Well if you'rie ght Sandy- then isn't that just a beneficient god you've got going on there?
He makes a creature who was once an angel, living in supreme love and all that, designs him so that he'll cause havoc and then banishes him to hell (10,000 years of burning in misery) so that he can tempt these little people that God has crafted in his image, 'best beloved' and all that malachi- so your wonderful loving god can chuck all them down to hell as well. If that is your god of supreme mercy and love - frankly mate you can keep him.
To Elderman- no of course there is no Devil- why ever ( apart from being brainwashed) would youi for a moment think there was?

[Elderman]

Birdie--Well ok ,Regardless of where you live, you have no doubt seen for yourself how religion affects the lives of millions of people, maybe yours too. Some claim to see good in all religions; hence, they feel no real need to seek out the true religion. Such individuals should heed the warning given by the prophet Isaiah, who wrote: “Woe to those who are saying that good is bad and bad is good, those who are putting darkness for light and light for darkness, those who are putting bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!” (Isaiah 5:20) Yes false religion has produced what is bad for humanity.
Can you explain why all the varied acts of senseless violence.? What makes some crimes more difficult to understand is their irrational nature. For example, it is hard to comprehend why a person would walk up to total strangers and stab him to death or why someone would drive by a house and shoot at random.
Some claim that violence is inherent in people. Others argue that senseless crimes cannot be explained as an unavoidable part of human nature.

[jake-the-peg]

The Bible's not really clear about the devil is it?

He doesn't appear too much - there's the Job story wherehe goes off to hurt Job with God's permission.

And there's the tempting of Jesus

But where does the cloven hooved monster ruling Hell come from?

Oh yes the Bible's own Acid-tripping fantasy merchant St. John the Divine and his book of revellations.

I think at the time there was some deal of controversy about whether that should be allowed in the Bible or excluded into the apocrapha.

I think they made a bad call there - I do wonder sometimes whether Chrisianity would have been different if they'd all told John to go and sober up

[mickrog]

Yes....aka Baroness Thatcher

[naomi24]

The bottom line is that if God created everything, he must have created the Devil too. Since God is allegedly omniscient, it follows that he was fully aware of the effect the Devil would have upon humankind before he set to work. Therefore, Elderman, there is no denying that, believing as you do, your God is wholly responsible for all the evils of the world.

[seadogg]

Thanks for the read folks but Mrs.S says the devil finds work for idle hands to do, pointing to the vac! Gran used to say, "If you look into the mirror you will see the devil" and she was never wrong.

[Elderman]

naom......... You to are still in the dark.
These questions do cause a person to think. When the natural desire of all normal persons is to live at peace, why is it so common for people to hate and make a practice of killing one another? It truly is a paradox, are you responsible all the evils of the world you say lot all blaming.

jake-the-peg........The Bible's not really clear about the devil is it? No, if you don’t know the Bible? for all the evils of the world.

[naomi24]

Elderman, for goodness sake, stop copying and pasting. You're typing gobbledegook again. If you believe your God to be the omnipotent creator, then he is responsible for everything. That is the only logical conclusion that any rational person can reach, and there can be no dispute.

[Davethedog]

Elderman - Question Did "God" create the "Devil" Yes or No

[Old_Geezer]

But what do we mean by responsibility ? Are we implying blame too ? If there are only certain scenarios that 'work' and we have to choose one that minimises what one might consider 'the bad stuff', and maximises what one might consider 'the good stuff', then selecting it may make the selector responsible for the choice, but not necessarily to blame for 'the bad stuff' that remained. It is the possible implication that may make folk feel less than easy.

[Gavmacp]

I will post my points in sections as my last thread disappeared without me posting it.
From my experience
1. The believe in evil/devil is often used as an excuse for someones behaviour. Instead of accepting blame for an action people have said I was tempted by the devil.

[maggiebee]

Got a wee devil here - 3 years of pure mischief!

[Gavmacp]

2. Do people with faith create evil people. I have read that in America the worst college gun crime is in the Bible belt.