Listener 4227: 42 By Xanthippe

[trux]

Well, that was quite a workout!! Scant help from the preamble made for tricky end-game even after sussing what the 42 were. Not a subject I know anything about so cannot comment on the specific accuracy or plausibility of the final manoeuvres. Some foxy clueing, too. Definitely feel like I deserve a drink but, alas, today is 1st of Feb and Feb is my dry month....Many thanks to Xanthippe for another hard test.

[TheBear69]

I agree with Trux about that clue - I've seen def/def/def, def/def/def/def, and def/def/wordplay before but never wordplay/def/wordplay. I did not think that was 'legal' and see no particular justification for it here.

This reminds me of something vaguely familiar from No. 3649: Forgive and Forget by Ploutos. I do not remember the answer or the clue but it involved an answer with a cedilla under a C that had to be included. The clue was constructed so that if you interpreted in incorrectly you got a similar word but with no cedilla. I think it involved wordplay/def/wordplay, but I could be wrong. To be clearer the clue may have been structured:

A B C
incorrect interpretation: B=def, A & C=wordplay => answer without cerdilla
correct interpretation: A=def, B & C=wordplay => answer with cedilla

Anyone else remember this (hopefully with more precision)?

[Texasetes]

Ruthrobin: I understood what Sabre had meant as soon as I saw the solution. Alas, that was too late. It spoiled 2012 for me, but I have to wait a few weeks to discover exactly how hacked off I ought to be.

TheBear69: Listener 3649 being over 11 years ago (and possibly during a sabbatical) I didn't remember it, so I searched the archives. A nice, gentle Christmas puzzle it was not. I think you must be referring to 1a:
A glimpse of Peru - ca est incroyable (9)
whose answer was aperçu, though I'm struggling to parse the clue in any way other than the correct one. But in any case, since no cedilla appears in the clue (as shown online, at least), it seems more than a little unfair.

[IainGrace]

Got the theme but a dozen clues to solve. If it aids those trying to break into 42ac, 27dn is six letters in the grid, not five.

[jim360]

Even with a few generous hints this was hard work! Given that I study some of this subject I suppose I ought to enjoy seeing the theme appear in a crossword -- but maybe the massive grind to get the final grid took away the fun of the theme. Or maybe I'm just too tired to appreciate it properly. Or maybe some sort of probably misguided thematic purism is involved...

Anyway clearly it's a very good construction and high marks for some tough cluing. A few devices I've not seen before e.g. 13d (though it's probably not original really but still a very nice clue!).

[Scorpius]

Yes, that was tough. I've only just solve the last two clues by considering elements left over after I'd attended to relevant "material" in the rest of the grid. I got the theme about half-way through, but the mechanics of the endgame took longer to suss.
Still puzzled by wordplay in four clues. One may be a cryptic definition, but seems a bit weak; half the words in an early across clue seem completely superfluous - if they are not, I don't understand their relevance.

Re earlier comments on the grid, I doubt if the grid was that hard to achieve, given 14 4-letter words and two 5-letter words with two unchecked letters (in fact one of them had, in effect, only one checked letter).

Nevertheless, a nice theme, well executed.

[Coalminers]

I've not got to the end of this enjoyable crossword yet, but surely 27 down should have (6) at the end, not (5). Please ignore my comment if the endgame is going to make everything clear.

[Coalminers]

Ignore my comment anyway...I see now it's already been mentioned

[IainGrace]

Now three to solve - same ones that others got stuck on perhaps. We know little about the subject, and comments to date probably don't encourage us to proceed to the endgame!

[tnap]

Did anyone else get a seemingly valid but incorrect answer to 37D? It certainly let to some confusion on my part as it meant I was looking for different 42. Finally all is clear though - a great crossword!

[Staurologist]

I had to solve this before realising why I thought I had seen it before, "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away" :>) The only disappointment is that it wasn't realised in four dimensions :>(

I agree to an extent with Scorpius, that construction was probably easier than it appeared from the messy process of solution, since the process works backwards for the composer, who has eight predetermined pairs to fit into the grid and can then clue their variants.

Incidentally, the original printed version of 3649 had the cedilla in place. Not only that, but in the subsequent encoding c and c cedilla were distinguished from each other. Ploutos was too punctilious about those kinds of things (including punctuation) to have neglected the difference. The standards he set have not been maintained, alas. The clue itself seems to me to be unexceptional (def + anagram).

[tilbee]

Have spent most of the afternoon trying to resolve the end game, which to me is certainly as hard as the grid fill. Believe I have 7 of the pairs resolved and a clear candidate for one of the final pair, but still no final PDM on the final affected answer. Oh well - onto more grid starting.

[tilbee]

Aha ! Checking each entry found that I had already incorrectly entered one of the answers in its modified form so now all resolved. Thought the whole construction was excellent, thanks to Xanthippe.

[TheBear69]

If someone has a copy of No. 3649: Forgive and Forget by Ploutos they can email me ([email protected]) I'd like to refresh my memory...thanks

[BlackHugh]

TB69 - Sent you it

[perseverer]

Copy also sent- but it is available on the Times Crossword Club

[Coalminers]

What Times Crossword Club? That exclusive club that no-one is allowed to join - and from which I have just been thrown out?

[Arcticpenguin]

Nice gentle puzzle interrupted only by visit to Twickenham yesterday and copious amounts of alcohol. Not unique though - this idea appeared in one of the 2008 puzzles. Remembering it helped hugely in the end-game.

[fortyseven]

Just finished, but that was quite a struggle! By the time 60% of the clues were solved the task ahead was clear but the last few clues held me up for some time. I liked 31across and 25down.

[TheBear69]

Thanks Blackhugh & perseverer; I guess I should learn to explore the archives myself!

[TheBear69]

The clue I was thinking of was:

Sound made by weird brood (4)

It's not a wordplay/def/wordplay clue...but it was part of a very clever trap from Ploutos. In this puzzle the across answers had to be encoded using a to-be-discovered scheme. To get the encoding you had to determina a set of words starting with FOR (including the two title words.) For example, E was encoded as L (using codeword FOREL - for E L). So the entry EGG was entered as LIVEET (E->L, G->IVE, G->ET).

Now, elsewhere in the puzzle C was encoded ES from FORCES. That leads us to the entry "aperçu" Using the ES for C (i.e. ignoring the cedilla) led one to the have EER? as the entry for the clue above. A lot of us fell into this trap and submitted EERY even though it seemed like the clue was flawed. However, the correct entry, of course, is AERY. The ç was encoded differently from the other C's, using FORçAT