Is This Man Trying To Make Me Feel Bad?
Family & Relationships6 mins ago
Female Islamic slaves?
44 Answers
Not up-to-the-minute news (dated 27 November 2010), but news nonetheless...
http://news.yahoo.com..._saudi_women_s_rights
The mind boggles doesn't it? Am I wrong in thinking that Islam is the most oppressive religious system in world when it comes to women's rights? Because that's how it appears to me.
http://news.yahoo.com..._saudi_women_s_rights
The mind boggles doesn't it? Am I wrong in thinking that Islam is the most oppressive religious system in world when it comes to women's rights? Because that's how it appears to me.
Answers
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Keyplus, the scriptures do say that women are not equal to men, and it seems you agree with them - which I can understand because where brains are concerned I leave you standing every time - and that's not to blow my own trumpet. It's a simple fact of life.
Women are not equal to men - and men are not equal to women. They are different - but that does not mean that one is less than the other as your book would have you and the rest of the world believe. When are you going to start living in the 21st century, Keyplus?
Women are not equal to men - and men are not equal to women. They are different - but that does not mean that one is less than the other as your book would have you and the rest of the world believe. When are you going to start living in the 21st century, Keyplus?
Keyplus – I find your last comment risible.
No one is trying to argue that men and women should be sharing toilet facilities. Nor is anyone trying to argue that men and women share identical physical characteristics.
When people are talking about equal rights for women, they're talking about legal and intellectual equality. Specifically, we're talking about a female's right to be in charge of her own body and her own destiny. If she is an adult and wishes to go somewhere alone or with others, she should not have to ask for permission from a male authority figure. If she is an adult and wishes to live with another person, she should not have to ask permission to do so. Not having to ask permission to do what you want to do from a member of the opposite sex, is the very definition of sexual equality.
No one is trying to argue that men and women should be sharing toilet facilities. Nor is anyone trying to argue that men and women share identical physical characteristics.
When people are talking about equal rights for women, they're talking about legal and intellectual equality. Specifically, we're talking about a female's right to be in charge of her own body and her own destiny. If she is an adult and wishes to go somewhere alone or with others, she should not have to ask for permission from a male authority figure. If she is an adult and wishes to live with another person, she should not have to ask permission to do so. Not having to ask permission to do what you want to do from a member of the opposite sex, is the very definition of sexual equality.
Continued...
Islamic scriptures do not preach the idea of women's equal rights. Quite the opposite in fact. That being said, neither the Bible nor the Torah are bastions of women's rights. All three of these Abrahamic religions preach the same thing – women are the possessions of men and are their intellectual inferiors. The reason I am more vocal in condemning Islam is that the other two religions which share Islam's origins are (now) not as oppressive to women. Both Judaism and Christianity have gone through intellectual and cultural reformations and at least now entertain the idea that women are equal to men on a legal and intellectual level, even though they still disallow women to become sanctified members of their religion.
As far as women's rights are concerned, Islam is the worst of a bad bunch.
Islamic scriptures do not preach the idea of women's equal rights. Quite the opposite in fact. That being said, neither the Bible nor the Torah are bastions of women's rights. All three of these Abrahamic religions preach the same thing – women are the possessions of men and are their intellectual inferiors. The reason I am more vocal in condemning Islam is that the other two religions which share Islam's origins are (now) not as oppressive to women. Both Judaism and Christianity have gone through intellectual and cultural reformations and at least now entertain the idea that women are equal to men on a legal and intellectual level, even though they still disallow women to become sanctified members of their religion.
As far as women's rights are concerned, Islam is the worst of a bad bunch.
Naomi – Time and time again I have ignored you because I don’t believe that you deserve intellectual debate. And you have proved me right again by saying this,
////Keyplus, the scriptures do say that women are not equal to men, and it seems you agree with them - which I can understand because where brains are concerned I leave you standing every time - and that's not to blow my own trumpet. It's a simple fact of life.////
Do you still remember the example I gave you about a clever Crow?
My little birdi - To sum up all what my little birdie believes women should be allowed when old enough I can finish by saying what I have said before and you will not have any suitable response. That if Islam is so bad (specifically towards women) then why are so many WESTERN women are accepting Islam? Perhaps the reason is that they are not happy with their lives after having done all what you suggested above. But I will not rely only on that.
cont:
////Keyplus, the scriptures do say that women are not equal to men, and it seems you agree with them - which I can understand because where brains are concerned I leave you standing every time - and that's not to blow my own trumpet. It's a simple fact of life.////
Do you still remember the example I gave you about a clever Crow?
My little birdi - To sum up all what my little birdie believes women should be allowed when old enough I can finish by saying what I have said before and you will not have any suitable response. That if Islam is so bad (specifically towards women) then why are so many WESTERN women are accepting Islam? Perhaps the reason is that they are not happy with their lives after having done all what you suggested above. But I will not rely only on that.
cont:
Islam is the first ever religion which gave women rights 1400 years ago the rights western women could not think of only over few decades ago. Perhaps Islam does not give freedom to destroy a society to women or men. The “RIGHTS” you are talking about have given enough consequences like, broken families, unwanted children, record level of teenage pregnancies, record level of kids where no one knows who the father is and so many other “GIFTS”. Did you ever watch Jermey Kyle show? According to you Judaism and Christianity have “MOVED ON”. We know what that move-on really means.
But I am still waiting for you (or your Mrs Echo) to give me where in Quran it says that women are not equal to men. And I will give you (from same Quran) that women are equal but not same and they have rights too. As women can’t use same toilet because they are not same, women can’t run in completion with men because they are not same, and women retire before men, guess what, because they are not same. Now let’s see if you know Quran in detail or you are still as far as any anti Islamic website will take you.
But I am still waiting for you (or your Mrs Echo) to give me where in Quran it says that women are not equal to men. And I will give you (from same Quran) that women are equal but not same and they have rights too. As women can’t use same toilet because they are not same, women can’t run in completion with men because they are not same, and women retire before men, guess what, because they are not same. Now let’s see if you know Quran in detail or you are still as far as any anti Islamic website will take you.
Come on keyplus, you know that it is not generally accepted that women are viewed as equal to men in historical terms in Islam - e.g. the fact that in court one man's evidence is acceptable but for a woman to be heard, there have to be two women saying the same thing (in case one doesn't get the story consistent). However - my big argument against all this is the women in the family of Muhammad himself (PBUH) - his women were feisty independent women, his wife Khadijah was a widow and successful business woman before she met him, and carried on with her business and dealing with men whilst he was doing his own stuff. Aisha travelled with him, camel riding - and from her came the hadith about modesty and covering your face in the presence of strangers. It is the interpretation of both Quran and hadith which is causing the problems now under discussion - the concept of the harem still rules in so many cultures. I've just finished reading a book about a Moroccan harem in the 1940s - fascinating stuff, but stultifying for the intelligent generations of women penned inside. The Quran itself makes pretty scary reading in many parts, but it's the hadith which have been reinterpreted and misinterpreted - generally by men - to keep women down, on the basis of "Modest is good, unseen must be better". Thank goodness that more liberal Islamic society is able to interpret this less rigorously but still let women be educated and have the right to make choices.
I can't help but agree with your reply about Rights and Gifts - Muslim grandmas I know are horrified at the state of some families' behaviour today, and I can't say I blame them, it's gone too far the other way.
I can't help but agree with your reply about Rights and Gifts - Muslim grandmas I know are horrified at the state of some families' behaviour today, and I can't say I blame them, it's gone too far the other way.
Boxtop – I know what you are saying and that is exactly I have been trying to tell the above two for over three years. And had it not been someone else (apart from them) I wouldn’t have posted on this thread anymore as I know it would have been waste of time.
The only correction I will make about your statement above that the ONLY matter where two women’s evidence is equal to one man are the financial matters.
Lonnie – If you talk about Deborah then read her complete history as well. She became Judge (and leader) when Israelites were having difficulties and had no leaders among men. But that is a position and not “RIGHT”. Here we are talking about Prescribed Rights. So give me examples of Prescribed rights from Bible (OT or NT) and I will give you 5-1 otherwise where women had no respect or rights (from within the Bible).
The only correction I will make about your statement above that the ONLY matter where two women’s evidence is equal to one man are the financial matters.
Lonnie – If you talk about Deborah then read her complete history as well. She became Judge (and leader) when Israelites were having difficulties and had no leaders among men. But that is a position and not “RIGHT”. Here we are talking about Prescribed Rights. So give me examples of Prescribed rights from Bible (OT or NT) and I will give you 5-1 otherwise where women had no respect or rights (from within the Bible).
-- answer removed --
I too argue that the Surah about testimony of a woman does not only confine itself to financial matters, if this is so then I would like to see where it is written in the Koran - my learning is that the testimony of a woman is equal to half that of a man. Two women have to present the same story of events for the evidence to be given credence against the word of a man in an Islamic court. If this - as so much else - relates to the era in which the Koran was handed down, then it was bit like Victorian Britain where "the women" had little to do with finance or business - the men did it all - but once again I cite the example of Khadijah, you can't tell me that she had a man running her business because she was only worth half in her business transactions, there is no evidence of this.
Running a business by Khadija itself is an evidence that in Islam women was allowed to do business even then. As for whether it confines to financial matters or not then here is the verse,
2:282. O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear Allah. For it is Good that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, - his heart is tainted with sin. And Allah knoweth all that ye do.
2:282. O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear Allah. For it is Good that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, - his heart is tainted with sin. And Allah knoweth all that ye do.
Interesting, keyplus - but I still interpret this as ANY commitment, eg contracts, business, etc. - personal and legal obligations - "in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time" isn't necessarily purely financial.
I'm not disputing that it's in Qu'ran, but it still rankles that - as I know it does others - it states the concept that it has to be two women "in case one gets it wrong" - as if men never get it wrong - then or now.
Thank you, however, for the reference - appreciated.
I'm not disputing that it's in Qu'ran, but it still rankles that - as I know it does others - it states the concept that it has to be two women "in case one gets it wrong" - as if men never get it wrong - then or now.
Thank you, however, for the reference - appreciated.
Naomi - Don't worry and don't try telling others what I am trying to do. I am sure other people here are clever enough too to understand. All you have to do is what I have advised you so many times before. Make sure you tell children in your family (especially females) all about how Islam treats women before they come and inform you about their decision to convert to Islam. And don’t be fool thinking it will never happen to you because it is happening around you.
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