Crosswords2 mins ago
Spying on Muslims
31 Answers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/6353035/Anti-extremism-scheme-spying-on-muslims.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/16/anti-terrorism-strategy-spies-innocents
Is this to be condoned in a free country, or a necessity taking into account the present situation?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/16/anti-terrorism-strategy-spies-innocents
Is this to be condoned in a free country, or a necessity taking into account the present situation?
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TCL....Of course they are labelled "innocent"because either they are not planning terrorist attacks or that they are and have done and not been caught. There are a lot of terrorists labelled "innocent."
If one is looking for Islamic terrorists, one does not tend to waste time in the leafy suburbs of Chipping Sodbury, or the Jewish Community or the Irish, or football hooligans, but in the Muslim Community......which seems perfectly reasonable to me, particularly if it saves the lives of innocent men, women and children.
If one is looking for Islamic terrorists, one does not tend to waste time in the leafy suburbs of Chipping Sodbury, or the Jewish Community or the Irish, or football hooligans, but in the Muslim Community......which seems perfectly reasonable to me, particularly if it saves the lives of innocent men, women and children.
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Most Muslims are not not terrorists. However, some are.
Muslims men are, generally speaking, clearly identifiable due to their appearance. If the good Muslims take offence at the fact that they're being tarred with the same brush as terrorists then maybe they should be more proactive in “outing” the extremists in their religion. However, this almost never happens. More often than not, Muslims with extreme views are concealed and protected from the authorities by their fellow Muslims.
Anyone remember the channel 4 programme, “Undercover Mosque”? This programme showed exactly this type of behaviour. When the “extremists” were in the company of non-Muslims, they kept their views to themselves. The second they thought they were out of earshot, the hate speak started and no one tackled them about it. It was just accepted.
When the IRA was the main terrorist threat in the UK in the 1970s and 1980s, men with Irish accents were routinely singled out, stopped and questioned by police. This is what will happen when any socially identifiable group has a reputation for terrorism.
Right now, it's mainly Muslim men.
Tough.
Muslims men are, generally speaking, clearly identifiable due to their appearance. If the good Muslims take offence at the fact that they're being tarred with the same brush as terrorists then maybe they should be more proactive in “outing” the extremists in their religion. However, this almost never happens. More often than not, Muslims with extreme views are concealed and protected from the authorities by their fellow Muslims.
Anyone remember the channel 4 programme, “Undercover Mosque”? This programme showed exactly this type of behaviour. When the “extremists” were in the company of non-Muslims, they kept their views to themselves. The second they thought they were out of earshot, the hate speak started and no one tackled them about it. It was just accepted.
When the IRA was the main terrorist threat in the UK in the 1970s and 1980s, men with Irish accents were routinely singled out, stopped and questioned by police. This is what will happen when any socially identifiable group has a reputation for terrorism.
Right now, it's mainly Muslim men.
Tough.
Kromovaracun - “You view the resounding success of this technique as a good precedent to go by, then?”
No, not necessarily. But it was understandable due to the nature of the threat. And what was the alternative at the time? Nothing, it was all they could do. Well, I suppose they could have done nothing at all but I suggest that this would not have been the wisest move by our security services do you?
The fact remains that if you fit a profile, regardless of your guilt or innocence, you will be targeted by the police or other law enforcement organisations. The threat of fundamentalist terrorism is very real and we would be very foolish indeed to ignore that threat.
No, not necessarily. But it was understandable due to the nature of the threat. And what was the alternative at the time? Nothing, it was all they could do. Well, I suppose they could have done nothing at all but I suggest that this would not have been the wisest move by our security services do you?
The fact remains that if you fit a profile, regardless of your guilt or innocence, you will be targeted by the police or other law enforcement organisations. The threat of fundamentalist terrorism is very real and we would be very foolish indeed to ignore that threat.
Kromovaracun .
I assume by your previous answer that you do not agree with this policy?
Given that Muslims seem reluctant to root out extremists in their midsts as I mentioned above, what is the realistic alternative?
Let's never forget that arresting and convicting people of plotting the mass murder of innocent civilians is probably the most difficult law enforcement activity there is. Putting someone behind bars before they're actually carried out their vile objective is exceptionally difficult at the best of times.
If some innocent individuals end up being spied on due to an investigation targeting murderous lunatics then so be it. It's not fair, but as I said before, tough.
I assume by your previous answer that you do not agree with this policy?
Given that Muslims seem reluctant to root out extremists in their midsts as I mentioned above, what is the realistic alternative?
Let's never forget that arresting and convicting people of plotting the mass murder of innocent civilians is probably the most difficult law enforcement activity there is. Putting someone behind bars before they're actually carried out their vile objective is exceptionally difficult at the best of times.
If some innocent individuals end up being spied on due to an investigation targeting murderous lunatics then so be it. It's not fair, but as I said before, tough.
Put simply its either their freedom or ours. It was no coincidence that the staff of MI5 grew from about 3000 to 8000 during the Iraq war. The threats and actions from the enemy within has altered the balance of a free society able to move about and do its business unhindered. Some innocents may be caught up in these terrorist plots but thats the price they pay for being from the same tribe. The original immigrants are free to go back from where they came but they seem to delight in siding with the insurgents who only wish the country harm. It seems countries like Russia and China have more respect for their countries and would have tackled the problem at source not trying to pacify them.
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"If you've nothing to hide, what's the problem?"
That's an easy one: the problem is the police arrest the wrong people. Ask the Birmingham Six. The Guilford Five. The Maguire Seven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildford_Four_and_Maguire_Seven
Every one of them wrongly convicted - guilty only of looking Irish (and not even that)
That's an easy one: the problem is the police arrest the wrong people. Ask the Birmingham Six. The Guilford Five. The Maguire Seven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildford_Four_and_Maguire_Seven
Every one of them wrongly convicted - guilty only of looking Irish (and not even that)
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