ChatterBank6 mins ago
maggie
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just watching a britain...a modern history on bbc2 its mainly about maggie thatcher she actually caused anarchy on the streets of britain,do you think she was a heroine for britain or a horror?my opinion is that she was the latter..............................
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oi lefties!
you open palm lightweights,
the miners wanted something along the lines of; 400 a week for 20 hours work producing 150 quids worth of coal each
poll tax... whats wrong with paying proportionately for the services you consume, or are you happy to be bailed out by hard workers
dont get me on the subject of new labours tax credits, manage to pull yourself out of bed for a whole 16 hours a week to earn about �100 and cop double that in tax 'credits' (it sure aint your tax you are being credited with) from my income tax,
enjoy
heres a better idea,
why does the percentage of tax taken go up the more you earn?
it should start at 40% and reduce the harder you work, why should people who put themselves out to graft and produce be penalised?
now that would be incentive!
maggie unfortunately didnt go far enough with reform
is your pot half full or half empty?
to people who grizzle that 'i work 40 hours a week'
i say you sit on your backside for 128!
if you want more get it from your own efforts, not mine
you open palm lightweights,
the miners wanted something along the lines of; 400 a week for 20 hours work producing 150 quids worth of coal each
poll tax... whats wrong with paying proportionately for the services you consume, or are you happy to be bailed out by hard workers
dont get me on the subject of new labours tax credits, manage to pull yourself out of bed for a whole 16 hours a week to earn about �100 and cop double that in tax 'credits' (it sure aint your tax you are being credited with) from my income tax,
enjoy
heres a better idea,
why does the percentage of tax taken go up the more you earn?
it should start at 40% and reduce the harder you work, why should people who put themselves out to graft and produce be penalised?
now that would be incentive!
maggie unfortunately didnt go far enough with reform
is your pot half full or half empty?
to people who grizzle that 'i work 40 hours a week'
i say you sit on your backside for 128!
if you want more get it from your own efforts, not mine
Crikey were to begin!
Do you remember how many appeals the hospitals used to put out for funding? Off the top of my head I can think of 2 Alder Hey had the "Rocking Horse" and "Cat Scanner" appeals. Don't see that anymore. I was in and out of hospital alot in those days (still am) listen, repeat and understand the NHS is better now than at anytime before 1979 (and I'd been in hospital 11 times already by then).
Remember the homeless all over the streets, don't see that anymore.
Remember the Ensign on merchant shipping? Don't see that anymore.
Remember the ship yards making things? Don't see that anymore. Although Steven Byers did'nt help much on that score.
The buses were deregulated in 1986 this destoyed vehicle making in Britain and resulted in poorer services, poorer vehicles, poorer staff working longer and increased car ownership.
We were the "The Dust Bin Of Europe" and Tory grandees said "We have the skills to deal with it".
They played the liberals at their own game with care in the community.
They raped the gas fields to kill the mine fields and now we have to import it from places like Russia.
They sold the trains, they sold the water, they sold telecoms, they sold the gas boards, they sold the electricity boards, they even sold off hospital cleaning.
Remember?
Do you remember how many appeals the hospitals used to put out for funding? Off the top of my head I can think of 2 Alder Hey had the "Rocking Horse" and "Cat Scanner" appeals. Don't see that anymore. I was in and out of hospital alot in those days (still am) listen, repeat and understand the NHS is better now than at anytime before 1979 (and I'd been in hospital 11 times already by then).
Remember the homeless all over the streets, don't see that anymore.
Remember the Ensign on merchant shipping? Don't see that anymore.
Remember the ship yards making things? Don't see that anymore. Although Steven Byers did'nt help much on that score.
The buses were deregulated in 1986 this destoyed vehicle making in Britain and resulted in poorer services, poorer vehicles, poorer staff working longer and increased car ownership.
We were the "The Dust Bin Of Europe" and Tory grandees said "We have the skills to deal with it".
They played the liberals at their own game with care in the community.
They raped the gas fields to kill the mine fields and now we have to import it from places like Russia.
They sold the trains, they sold the water, they sold telecoms, they sold the gas boards, they sold the electricity boards, they even sold off hospital cleaning.
Remember?
-- answer removed --
They sold the trains, they sold the water, they sold telecoms, they sold the gas boards, they sold the electricity boards,
And notice that in each of those cases, the management and quality has improved considerably.
The buses were deregulated in 1986 this destoyed vehicle making in Britain
No. Market forces destroyed vehicle making in Britain. Let's face it, British Leyland was hardly a hub of quality vehicle manufacture - more people wanted cars that were actually reliable (and affordable, so Morgans and Rollers were out of the question), so they brought them abroad.
And you're blaming Thatcher for this?
True Krom, but only for a certain few.
The majority suffered.
Nonsense. Are you seriously claiming that the prosperity we've enjoyed in recent years has been purely for a minority? Because the facts disagree with you.
Interestingly, if you actually look at the growth of disposable income in the Thatcher years, that of the poorest 10th of the population actually stays the same (well, it increases ever so slightly but not notably).
And notice that in each of those cases, the management and quality has improved considerably.
The buses were deregulated in 1986 this destoyed vehicle making in Britain
No. Market forces destroyed vehicle making in Britain. Let's face it, British Leyland was hardly a hub of quality vehicle manufacture - more people wanted cars that were actually reliable (and affordable, so Morgans and Rollers were out of the question), so they brought them abroad.
And you're blaming Thatcher for this?
True Krom, but only for a certain few.
The majority suffered.
Nonsense. Are you seriously claiming that the prosperity we've enjoyed in recent years has been purely for a minority? Because the facts disagree with you.
Interestingly, if you actually look at the growth of disposable income in the Thatcher years, that of the poorest 10th of the population actually stays the same (well, it increases ever so slightly but not notably).
"They sold the trains, they sold the water, they sold telecoms, they sold the gas boards, they sold the electricity boards,
And notice that in each of those cases, the management and directors' wages improved out of all proportion."
I've corrected your assertion for you.
Come on - thanks to Maggie's policies the rich are even richer than they were before, something that New Labour have failed to address as they're too busy with their own noses in the trough.
I'm beginning to suspect that the better off in this country have no idea how everyone else lives. A recent post on the Tanker Drivers' strike on Virgin Media suggested that they were justified as "40k is only a 'living' wage". Mme LeMarchand and I don't earn that combined! (We both work full-time and I do the odd evening job).
There is a growing resentment of the way our "leaders" and those controlling our industries are fleecing the rest of us. I sometimes wonder if we aren't far off people taking a much more aggressive stance to protest the shoddy treatment of "ordinary" folk.
And notice that in each of those cases, the management and directors' wages improved out of all proportion."
I've corrected your assertion for you.
Come on - thanks to Maggie's policies the rich are even richer than they were before, something that New Labour have failed to address as they're too busy with their own noses in the trough.
I'm beginning to suspect that the better off in this country have no idea how everyone else lives. A recent post on the Tanker Drivers' strike on Virgin Media suggested that they were justified as "40k is only a 'living' wage". Mme LeMarchand and I don't earn that combined! (We both work full-time and I do the odd evening job).
There is a growing resentment of the way our "leaders" and those controlling our industries are fleecing the rest of us. I sometimes wonder if we aren't far off people taking a much more aggressive stance to protest the shoddy treatment of "ordinary" folk.
you lot make me laugh when thatcher was in power i never knew if my job was safe
labour come in with the very nice mr blair , my job along with thousands of others have gone to china and india, and my firm did make a nice profit but they can make more in china and india.
as for hospitals now i need treatment i can't have it because i smoke.wonder why maggie did not think of that.
as for maggie dead swap that for brown only drag it out nice and slow
use to vote labour never again they want to help all the deadlegs from around the world and the working class are left to rot.
labour come in with the very nice mr blair , my job along with thousands of others have gone to china and india, and my firm did make a nice profit but they can make more in china and india.
as for hospitals now i need treatment i can't have it because i smoke.wonder why maggie did not think of that.
as for maggie dead swap that for brown only drag it out nice and slow
use to vote labour never again they want to help all the deadlegs from around the world and the working class are left to rot.
Come on - thanks to Maggie's policies the rich are even richer than they were before,
So?
Look, the fact that some people are rich doesn't necessarily mean they've filched it off of everyone else. The problem with wealth gaps is that those who are better off tend to have a slightly better advantage starting out in life than the poor. Which is completely wrong, but it's not an invention of the Thatcher years - it's always been a problem.
In fact nowadays more people from poor backgrounds aren't just going straight into mining or other stereotypically 'working class' jobs (even if the majority do). Plenty have set up their own companies. Or made a lot of money investing in the stock market.
Plus you are overlooking the fact that in several places the industries improved immeasurably - the privatisation of the electricity boards for instance is widely respected among economic historians. The Steel industry, since it was given free reign by privatisation, turned from an industry on the verge of collapse (and rest assured it would have), to one of the best in Europe.
Privatisation could have gone better (the government had a nasty habit of rapidly under-selling). But in the vast majority of cases where it occured it has improved quality and decreased cost.
So?
Look, the fact that some people are rich doesn't necessarily mean they've filched it off of everyone else. The problem with wealth gaps is that those who are better off tend to have a slightly better advantage starting out in life than the poor. Which is completely wrong, but it's not an invention of the Thatcher years - it's always been a problem.
In fact nowadays more people from poor backgrounds aren't just going straight into mining or other stereotypically 'working class' jobs (even if the majority do). Plenty have set up their own companies. Or made a lot of money investing in the stock market.
Plus you are overlooking the fact that in several places the industries improved immeasurably - the privatisation of the electricity boards for instance is widely respected among economic historians. The Steel industry, since it was given free reign by privatisation, turned from an industry on the verge of collapse (and rest assured it would have), to one of the best in Europe.
Privatisation could have gone better (the government had a nasty habit of rapidly under-selling). But in the vast majority of cases where it occured it has improved quality and decreased cost.
She was the LAST highly principled politician this dying country had - she was the last one I could ever bring myself to vote for, and if we'd had someone of her calibre leading the country over the last 10 years we would not be in the sorry state that we find ourselves in now............and I am a Northerner!
Firstly I have to concede that she was given a mandate by the electorate to do what she did.
The vehicle making I was referring to was the making of buses and bus bodies.
The railways went the way most privatised industries went, the government starved it of investment to make it perform worse. Have the trains improved? News to me, our we spending that much less on railways now than before, in real terms or comparitively, I doubt it.
The point I was trying to make about coal (AB ate an earlier post) was that British coal could'nt compete with foreign coal as it was subsidised to a far greater degree, it certainly could'nt compete with nuclear power. The Germans or the French would never dienfranchise so many of it's voters so easily.
Even the car industry all Italian cars of the era and beyond were rubbish, the French cars were'nt much better, German cars were quality, so what killed the industry? Japanese imports.
The vehicle making I was referring to was the making of buses and bus bodies.
The railways went the way most privatised industries went, the government starved it of investment to make it perform worse. Have the trains improved? News to me, our we spending that much less on railways now than before, in real terms or comparitively, I doubt it.
The point I was trying to make about coal (AB ate an earlier post) was that British coal could'nt compete with foreign coal as it was subsidised to a far greater degree, it certainly could'nt compete with nuclear power. The Germans or the French would never dienfranchise so many of it's voters so easily.
Even the car industry all Italian cars of the era and beyond were rubbish, the French cars were'nt much better, German cars were quality, so what killed the industry? Japanese imports.
Have the trains improved?
It was actually Major who privatised the railways but that quibble aside...
I'd say they have. They're not great, sure. But according to people I've asked (well, all the people who aren't trying very hard to dislike Thatcher), they've improved. Plus speaking as someone who's only experienced them privatised - they are by and large on time. Not always, but pretty much.
The vehicle making I was referring to was the making of buses and bus bodies.
Buses are still being made quite happily though. The difference is that they're run by multiple companies who (quite reasonably) economise on buses based on how many they actually need. Which I have to say I prefer than people just making them in bulk for the sake of short-term employment.
British coal couldn't compete with foreign coal as it was subsidised to a far greater degree,
That's not the whole story though. British coal would have required much larger subsidies (and thus from the government's perspective - remember they were nationalised - been more expensive to maintain than it was worth anyway) because of how deep we now have to dig for it. Whatever way you look at it, it was simply cheaper to import. That meant the UK mining industry was inevitably going to decline.
so what killed the industry? Japanese imports.
Yeah.
I still don't see why this is Thatcher's fault, though.
It was actually Major who privatised the railways but that quibble aside...
I'd say they have. They're not great, sure. But according to people I've asked (well, all the people who aren't trying very hard to dislike Thatcher), they've improved. Plus speaking as someone who's only experienced them privatised - they are by and large on time. Not always, but pretty much.
The vehicle making I was referring to was the making of buses and bus bodies.
Buses are still being made quite happily though. The difference is that they're run by multiple companies who (quite reasonably) economise on buses based on how many they actually need. Which I have to say I prefer than people just making them in bulk for the sake of short-term employment.
British coal couldn't compete with foreign coal as it was subsidised to a far greater degree,
That's not the whole story though. British coal would have required much larger subsidies (and thus from the government's perspective - remember they were nationalised - been more expensive to maintain than it was worth anyway) because of how deep we now have to dig for it. Whatever way you look at it, it was simply cheaper to import. That meant the UK mining industry was inevitably going to decline.
so what killed the industry? Japanese imports.
Yeah.
I still don't see why this is Thatcher's fault, though.
Leyland cars of the era were no worse than most European cars of the time they did make some good cars (Maxi, Dolomite, XJ6, SD1, Mini, Triumph 2000) the Japanese imports (like the coal in a way) were from protectionist economies and policies.
Most bus platforms are imported now (I think there's only Dennis left and they're foreign owned, I think) buses are hand made and made to order (always have been) with dereg companies stopped buying vehicles.
I accept (and readily knew) that Major sold the railways but it was the continuation of Thatcher policies. Having established that you're too young to remember much (if anything) of Thatcher's governance tends to disqualify you on things such as the NHS, I'm telling you straight I used to spend hours waiting to see the Dr. in fracture clinic, I used to spend hours in A&E, I spent hours on a trolley with concussion, that's before you remember the hospital closures and bed closures.
Education under milk snatcher suffered from countless teachers strikes, poor buildings and little equipment, (remember) I was there.
The sale of council housing is one of the biggest reasons for the housing crisis today.
Unlike you I remember the illness but I also remember the cure and it very nearly killed the patient, for many in Wales, Scotland and in Sheffield (steel industry) it did just that.
You appear to be a proponet of Major's "yes it hurt yes it worked" ideology, if you had lived through such times, then the experience would probably make you think differently.
Most bus platforms are imported now (I think there's only Dennis left and they're foreign owned, I think) buses are hand made and made to order (always have been) with dereg companies stopped buying vehicles.
I accept (and readily knew) that Major sold the railways but it was the continuation of Thatcher policies. Having established that you're too young to remember much (if anything) of Thatcher's governance tends to disqualify you on things such as the NHS, I'm telling you straight I used to spend hours waiting to see the Dr. in fracture clinic, I used to spend hours in A&E, I spent hours on a trolley with concussion, that's before you remember the hospital closures and bed closures.
Education under milk snatcher suffered from countless teachers strikes, poor buildings and little equipment, (remember) I was there.
The sale of council housing is one of the biggest reasons for the housing crisis today.
Unlike you I remember the illness but I also remember the cure and it very nearly killed the patient, for many in Wales, Scotland and in Sheffield (steel industry) it did just that.
You appear to be a proponet of Major's "yes it hurt yes it worked" ideology, if you had lived through such times, then the experience would probably make you think differently.
P.S.
She had the choice between funding a con man (Delorean) or an established car maker AC (they'd just launched the 3000me, a nice car) she chose Delorean.
And don't foget Westmoreland, another industry hived off, and all the crooks.
Look up don't let the b@st@rds get you down, that was the calibre of Tory ru(i)nning this country then.
She had the choice between funding a con man (Delorean) or an established car maker AC (they'd just launched the 3000me, a nice car) she chose Delorean.
And don't foget Westmoreland, another industry hived off, and all the crooks.
Look up don't let the b@st@rds get you down, that was the calibre of Tory ru(i)nning this country then.
Look, the fact that some people are rich doesn't necessarily mean they've filched it off of everyone else.
Not necessarily, but probably (or, if not them, their parents).
(on trains)I'd say they have. They're not great, sure. But according to people I've asked (well, all the people who aren't trying very hard to dislike Thatcher), they've improved. Plus speaking as someone who's only experienced them privatised - they are by and large on time.
WHAT!!! I (fortunately) rarely have to use the trains, but Mme LeMarchand does, and she assures me that they certainly haven't improved. Why? Because the best way for the fat cats to make money is by cutting expenditure whilst raising prices.
Not necessarily, but probably (or, if not them, their parents).
(on trains)I'd say they have. They're not great, sure. But according to people I've asked (well, all the people who aren't trying very hard to dislike Thatcher), they've improved. Plus speaking as someone who's only experienced them privatised - they are by and large on time.
WHAT!!! I (fortunately) rarely have to use the trains, but Mme LeMarchand does, and she assures me that they certainly haven't improved. Why? Because the best way for the fat cats to make money is by cutting expenditure whilst raising prices.
Not necessarily, but probably (or, if not them, their parents)
Not really...
cars of the era were no worse than most European cars of the time
Yes - for their time. The Japanese cars came along and were better, so people bought them.
In the rest of your post you essentially describe your personal experience, and tell me that you know better.
All due respect, 'being there' doesn't mean you know better. It means you have experience of aspects of what happened which would have varied based on geography, your background, your age, possibly your views and all the other variables.
I'm going to be frank here - I don't appreciate being told I know F-A or that my argument's null and void because of my age.
What I'm doing is looking at evidence left behind. You know what I see?
I see that in 1997, the country was way better off in terms of income and prosperity than it was in 1979.
I see that I've grown up with... 2 major strikes, if I remember right. Whereas people my age across the country in the '70s grew up with services and utilities constantly blockaded (for instance one postal strike that lasted months. In an age where this and the telephone were just about the only means of communication)
I can see foreign countries using the privatisation of the electrical industry as a blueprint for their own.
I can also see that unemployment skyrocketed (and gradually decreased afterwards) in the Thatcher years. I can see that the management reforms of the NHS changed it for the worse, and that the property market was left in disastrous shape largely due to Thatcher's consistent meddling.
I've never claimed that Thatcher has a perfect record, but she benefited the country in far more ways than she's credited for by most people. She deserves criticism. Severe
Not really...
cars of the era were no worse than most European cars of the time
Yes - for their time. The Japanese cars came along and were better, so people bought them.
In the rest of your post you essentially describe your personal experience, and tell me that you know better.
All due respect, 'being there' doesn't mean you know better. It means you have experience of aspects of what happened which would have varied based on geography, your background, your age, possibly your views and all the other variables.
I'm going to be frank here - I don't appreciate being told I know F-A or that my argument's null and void because of my age.
What I'm doing is looking at evidence left behind. You know what I see?
I see that in 1997, the country was way better off in terms of income and prosperity than it was in 1979.
I see that I've grown up with... 2 major strikes, if I remember right. Whereas people my age across the country in the '70s grew up with services and utilities constantly blockaded (for instance one postal strike that lasted months. In an age where this and the telephone were just about the only means of communication)
I can see foreign countries using the privatisation of the electrical industry as a blueprint for their own.
I can also see that unemployment skyrocketed (and gradually decreased afterwards) in the Thatcher years. I can see that the management reforms of the NHS changed it for the worse, and that the property market was left in disastrous shape largely due to Thatcher's consistent meddling.
I've never claimed that Thatcher has a perfect record, but she benefited the country in far more ways than she's credited for by most people. She deserves criticism. Severe
