Making It Up As They Go Along

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Sunk | 08:07 Sun 03rd Jan 2021 | News
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Public Health England approves mixing doses of different covid vaccines.

// Virologist Prof John Moore from Cornell University in the US, who said “there are no data on this idea whatsoever” and that British officials “seem to have abandoned science completely now and are just trying to guess their way out of a mess”. //

// Dr Mary Ramsay, Public Health England's head of immunisations, said: "We do not recommend mixing the Covid-19 vaccines - if your first dose is the Pfizer vaccine you should not be given the AstraZeneca vaccine for your second dose and vice versa."
Dr Ramsay added that on the "extremely rare occasions" where the same vaccine is unavailable... it is "better to give a second dose of another vaccine than not at all". //

Is this bonkers?


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What's your point. Are you saying they are doing it wrong. Am not aware there are any plans to mix the two diffrent vaccinnes.its just a contingency if last resort. Seems to me your looking for ways to find problems that aren't there. Am a labour man but dont see a need to look for ways to criticise the English goverment every time
So a think its bonkers yes- bonkers of you to look for a problem where none exists. Newspapers do do it off course as some reader's lap it up, Gaurdian one one side , Express on other
//Am a labour man but dont see a need to look for ways to criticise the English goverment every time//

Bertieland has its own government now... braw
The BMA have asked the NYT to withdraw there article. Just read the report and its definately twisted the fact's and interpretation to try to make a story.
File under 'move along,nothing to see here'
Much of what appears in your link, Sunk, is based around a report in the New York Times, which the BMJ has criticised for its inaccuracy:
// Dr Mary Ramsey, said mixing was not recommended and would only happen in exceptional circumstances. //

guess it might depend on how "exceptional circumstances" is defined. given the recent track record of the government, I suspect it will deviate from scientific or clinical need and veer off into the territory of meeting government targets.
they have defined exceptional circumstances as circumstances where the original vaccine is not available or its not known what they had the first time AND its believed that attendance at another time would be unlikely to happen or the person is . I know someone whose husband took part in the testing program. he has been told to contact the program when he is offered avaccine and they will tell him what he was, oxford or placebo but in any case if its 12 weeks or more since he was giuven the testing program vaccine then it doesn't matter and he can go ahead and accept.
"“We do not recommend mixing the COVID-19 vaccines - if your first dose is the Pfizer vaccine you should not be given the AstraZeneca vaccine for your second dose and vice versa,” she said.

There may be extremely rare occasions where the same vaccine is not available, or where it is not known what vaccine the patient received.
The caution from PHE comes after the UK government issued guidance to NHS health care workers on 31 December which stated that if a person goes back for their second dose of either vaccine, but the same type isn’t available, then it is “reasonable” to offer a dose of another vaccine.

The government added “This option is preferred if the individual is likely to be at immediate high risk or is considered unlikely to attend again,” the guidance adds."
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// Public Health England’s Covid “green book” recommends that “it is reasonable to offer one dose of the locally available product to complete the schedule” if the same vaccine used for the first dose is not available. //

The New York Times accurately reported the new recommendation and had scientists and medical experts to say the UK is ‘Gambling’ and had ‘abandoned science completely.

The BMJ (a newspaper not the Association) said the New York Times should print a ‘highly visible correction’. As the recommendation to mix vaccines is in the PHEs ‘Green book’ of official guidelines, the NY Times is standing by its story and has NOT corrected it.

And no, I am not looking for a problem. No other nation has approved mix and match different vaccinations, and medically it is nonsense. It is proper that nonsense is highlighted and called out as possibly ‘dangerous’.

at least we are vaccinating

I cant believe that second different vaccine dose will harm .....
that is relatively immunosuppress.

If I had had X and then they said - second is Y or Z, but no X
I wd NOT say - Oh I will have nothing thank you
// It is proper that nonsense is highlighted and called out as possibly ‘dangerous’.//

on what evidence are you saying it is dangerous?

oh there isnt any! - - then please apply the logic of the previous posts
I agree with the BMJ
[oops sozza in AB speak - "I am foo wiv da BMJ yeah? - is that how you spell it?"]
much better

but I have to own up to an interest - BMJ stalwart- Trisha Greenhalgh (whom a lot of the time I regard as an idiot)'s mum has just died before vaccianting.

(clearly that was someone elses interest not mine)
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I am not a scientist so my only evidence is what real scientists are saying about mix and match.

// The new guidance contradicts guidelines in the United States, where the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has noted that the authorized Covid-19 vaccines “are not interchangeable,” and that “the safety and efficacy of a mixed-product series have not been evaluated. Both doses of the series should be completed with the same product.”

Some scientists say Britain is gambling with its new guidance. “There are no data on this idea whatsoever,” said John Moore, a vaccine expert at Cornell University. Officials in Britain “seem to have abandoned science completely now and are just trying to guess their way out of a mess.” //

Obviously if people have a second vaccine that has not worked, then they are susceptible to contracting the virus and in their ignorance, spreading it. I’d call that a dangerous situation.
I've said in the past that the media can create more upset and concern than covid itself. However when a government open Nightingale hospitals with thousands of beds knowing full well they have no staff to operate them, nothing this government do will now surprise me.
the crux of the matter seems to be the "exceptional circumstances" thing, which woofgang has spelt out. All they've said, as far as I can see, is that a second dose of a different drug needn't be ruled out. Moore's response that the British have abandoned science completely sounds like an overreaction. What exactly would he do if he couldn't find what vaccine a patient had had first time round? Use another or use nothing?

He's doubtless right to say there are no data, but that also means there's no known reason *not* to do it.
All very confusing and unnecessary.
Make up your mind and stick to it.
Vaccines are confusing, Pfizer, Astrazeneca,Moderna,, one booster 12 months s later.....
For God's sake.........get your act together Politicians and Scientists.
sqad are you saying that when circumstances change the decisions shouldn't? or that all possibilities shouldn't be considered when producing policy documents?
I've also said in the past , no matter how many times you hit Boris over the head with a sledge hammer, nothing will get through.
I am also a cynic.....if you were Pfizer and making money from a med would you be laughing and happy to say "oh yes you don't need to buy our expensive and complex to store vaccine for second doses"
woofy.....I hopened my message would have been quite clear.
You gather the evidence, formulate a plan, implement that plan and only modify when there are clear indications that your plan can be improved.
Nothing that I have seen would be of any advantage other than to complicate an already difficult task.
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I am less concerned about a possibly different vaccine being used if the first vaccine is unknown for some reason. At least there is a 50/50 they may guess right
But Dr Ramsay said if supplies of the required vaccine ‘were unavailable’ then the wrong vaccine could be used.

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