Quizzes & Puzzles41 mins ago
Chequers Plan Regected.
Tusk says it undermines the EUSSR single market. Looks like out with no trade deal, which should have happened 2 years ago. We all knew that it is, and always was, the aim of the EU from the day we elected to leave.
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I see that glug is posting the usual gurgles. The signs are that more remainers would change their stance. Particularly after witnessing the events since the referendum was held. I also use and read comments and Q&A threads on other sites and will post just one example of a very lucid reply from a remain voter.
N*** O*** (Poster)
I voted to Remain.
I listened carefully to the campaigns and thought they were all dreadful. I knew little about the EU, how it works or how it affects us. I was concerned about mass immigration, was highly skeptical about claims on buses, did not know which way to vote right up to the final day, and in the end voted to Remain because I was concerned about my children’s future and was worried about the forecast economic doom if we Left. If ‘Project Fear’ existed then it worked on me.
The Brexit victory came as a bit of a shock. I really believed my decision was academic as we would Remain anyway, I just wanted to participate. But I can’t say I was particularly disappointed. I became interested. I read Quora, got involved in the debates. The first thing I noticed was that a lot of Remainers used insults to try and win points. Racist. Little Englander. Xenophobe. Head-in-the-sand, etc… Now in general anyone who resorts to insult in a debate doesn’t know any decent, logical arguments for their position, so I became suspicious. And looked deeper.
Much of what I heard from the Remain camp didn’t pass the common sense test.
I heard people worried about not being able to go on holiday to Europe, read how the boss of Airbus wouldn’t be able to visit his factories, how aircraft wouldn’t fly, how driving licences wouldn’t be recognised. It seemed to me that it must be nonsense because I fly off to non EU countries and drive around them on my UK driving licence, and people fly to the EU from around the world and drive around. Sure it would take some treaties or whatever to be signed by those in power but of course they will be. There is absolutely no reason why not, and incredibly strong reasons why they should be. Sheer common sense dictates normal life will continue.
Then I read about queues at Dover as every lorry will have to be checked and thought that doesn’t make sense either. Goods coming in and out of the EU are very rarely checked at the border, they never have been, why should it change? I read how we won’t be able to buy food and medicine and I thought if the EU won’t sell us stuff we can just buy them elsewhere. It’s a big old world. I grew up eating apples from South Africa and lamb and butter from New Zealand, which is at the opposite end of the world. Even now almost everything I buy seems to be made in the Far East. How hard can world trade actually be? I read how we are a tiny off shore island destined to become like Albania that everybody will push around, then read up a few facts about the size, economic power and political influence the UK still has on the world stage. We ain’t no Albania. That’s for sure.
And of course, month after month went by and the promised economic crisis failed to appear. Like a religious doomsday prophet the end of the world was on Tuesday the 15th. Then the 19th, then next 15th… (continued)
N*** O*** (Poster)
I voted to Remain.
I listened carefully to the campaigns and thought they were all dreadful. I knew little about the EU, how it works or how it affects us. I was concerned about mass immigration, was highly skeptical about claims on buses, did not know which way to vote right up to the final day, and in the end voted to Remain because I was concerned about my children’s future and was worried about the forecast economic doom if we Left. If ‘Project Fear’ existed then it worked on me.
The Brexit victory came as a bit of a shock. I really believed my decision was academic as we would Remain anyway, I just wanted to participate. But I can’t say I was particularly disappointed. I became interested. I read Quora, got involved in the debates. The first thing I noticed was that a lot of Remainers used insults to try and win points. Racist. Little Englander. Xenophobe. Head-in-the-sand, etc… Now in general anyone who resorts to insult in a debate doesn’t know any decent, logical arguments for their position, so I became suspicious. And looked deeper.
Much of what I heard from the Remain camp didn’t pass the common sense test.
I heard people worried about not being able to go on holiday to Europe, read how the boss of Airbus wouldn’t be able to visit his factories, how aircraft wouldn’t fly, how driving licences wouldn’t be recognised. It seemed to me that it must be nonsense because I fly off to non EU countries and drive around them on my UK driving licence, and people fly to the EU from around the world and drive around. Sure it would take some treaties or whatever to be signed by those in power but of course they will be. There is absolutely no reason why not, and incredibly strong reasons why they should be. Sheer common sense dictates normal life will continue.
Then I read about queues at Dover as every lorry will have to be checked and thought that doesn’t make sense either. Goods coming in and out of the EU are very rarely checked at the border, they never have been, why should it change? I read how we won’t be able to buy food and medicine and I thought if the EU won’t sell us stuff we can just buy them elsewhere. It’s a big old world. I grew up eating apples from South Africa and lamb and butter from New Zealand, which is at the opposite end of the world. Even now almost everything I buy seems to be made in the Far East. How hard can world trade actually be? I read how we are a tiny off shore island destined to become like Albania that everybody will push around, then read up a few facts about the size, economic power and political influence the UK still has on the world stage. We ain’t no Albania. That’s for sure.
And of course, month after month went by and the promised economic crisis failed to appear. Like a religious doomsday prophet the end of the world was on Tuesday the 15th. Then the 19th, then next 15th… (continued)
Then I observed the EU negotiating tactics. “We have to settle the Irish border question before we talk about trade.” But surely the Irish border question cannot be settled until we know what the trade deal is? “Non”.
“We have to settle how much the UK will pay us before we talk about what benefits the UK will get from us.” But surely you discuss the price alongside the product? “Non”.
I read up about the EU, how it is run, how hard it is to influence - meaning it was in practice not very democratic at all. How the books don’t balance. How they say one thing and do another. How there is to be no cherry picking while every EU country but two have bespoke deals. About what their ultimate aim is. How a foreign court has so much power over us. I looked into how much money was going into the pockets of the rich, how much land value is determined by tariffs and the CAP, how the EU is set up as a capitalist organisation, where the talk is of a socialist paradise but the rich somehow always get richer. I found out how many EU countries have significant problems, and the rise of anti EU feeling across the EU. How it took decades to reach any trade deals. About the protectionism. The more I read, the less inviting the ship looked, and the bigger the icebergs loomed.
Then I noticed how TM went about negotiations. “We have to have a deal with you otherwise we are stuffed. Will you be nice?” WHAT! I’m no high flyer but I know the first rule of negotiation is to have an alternative. It’s like trying to get a good deal on a car while your wife is telling the salesman that we’re going to buy the car anyway.
All this time I read posts from the likes of Barney Lane and Adrian Patterson, who presented fact and informed opinion on key issues around economics, world trade and Ireland. I read posts from the likes of Anthony Pateman who live on the other end of the spectrum and how his life is affected. They were polite and honestly presented.
I was persuaded by politeness, rational argument and common sense. I am now a staunch Brexiteer and would most definitely change my vote to Leave//
“We have to settle how much the UK will pay us before we talk about what benefits the UK will get from us.” But surely you discuss the price alongside the product? “Non”.
I read up about the EU, how it is run, how hard it is to influence - meaning it was in practice not very democratic at all. How the books don’t balance. How they say one thing and do another. How there is to be no cherry picking while every EU country but two have bespoke deals. About what their ultimate aim is. How a foreign court has so much power over us. I looked into how much money was going into the pockets of the rich, how much land value is determined by tariffs and the CAP, how the EU is set up as a capitalist organisation, where the talk is of a socialist paradise but the rich somehow always get richer. I found out how many EU countries have significant problems, and the rise of anti EU feeling across the EU. How it took decades to reach any trade deals. About the protectionism. The more I read, the less inviting the ship looked, and the bigger the icebergs loomed.
Then I noticed how TM went about negotiations. “We have to have a deal with you otherwise we are stuffed. Will you be nice?” WHAT! I’m no high flyer but I know the first rule of negotiation is to have an alternative. It’s like trying to get a good deal on a car while your wife is telling the salesman that we’re going to buy the car anyway.
All this time I read posts from the likes of Barney Lane and Adrian Patterson, who presented fact and informed opinion on key issues around economics, world trade and Ireland. I read posts from the likes of Anthony Pateman who live on the other end of the spectrum and how his life is affected. They were polite and honestly presented.
I was persuaded by politeness, rational argument and common sense. I am now a staunch Brexiteer and would most definitely change my vote to Leave//
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