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Come On, Girls!
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// I wish them strength in their quest and most importantly success.//
well I am sorry to remind you ladies ( amid this swirl of girliedom) that women were vocal and active in street protests to bring down the Shah when they er had many greater rights.....
and to establish the saintly and benign Ayatollah Khomaini
so Mamlyine's sentiment should be
I wish them strength in their quest to restore the rights they had fifty years ago and voluntarily gave up !
well I am sorry to remind you ladies ( amid this swirl of girliedom) that women were vocal and active in street protests to bring down the Shah when they er had many greater rights.....
and to establish the saintly and benign Ayatollah Khomaini
so Mamlyine's sentiment should be
I wish them strength in their quest to restore the rights they had fifty years ago and voluntarily gave up !
Naomi - // The burka isn't always about choice - but I'll leave it there. This discussion isn't about the burka. //
No, the burka is not always about choice, but this debate is about choice.
I can’t reconcile ladies in the west supporting their sisters in protest at being made to wear something, which is oppression, while simultaneously supporting a burka ban in Europe – which is identical oppression.
The argument that the burka is worn by oppressed women is entirely spurious – we have no way of knowing the percentage of Muslim women who wear a burka from choice, and the notion of a blanket ban because we perceive their ‘oppression’ is cultural arrogance of the worst kind.
Freedom of choice is an essential for all women anywhere in the world – but let’s be sure we are not only applauding it when it’s somewhere else, not on our streets.
No, the burka is not always about choice, but this debate is about choice.
I can’t reconcile ladies in the west supporting their sisters in protest at being made to wear something, which is oppression, while simultaneously supporting a burka ban in Europe – which is identical oppression.
The argument that the burka is worn by oppressed women is entirely spurious – we have no way of knowing the percentage of Muslim women who wear a burka from choice, and the notion of a blanket ban because we perceive their ‘oppression’ is cultural arrogance of the worst kind.
Freedom of choice is an essential for all women anywhere in the world – but let’s be sure we are not only applauding it when it’s somewhere else, not on our streets.
andy-hughes, high ideals are very commendable – but only if they’re well-thought through – and yours aren’t. One woman’s freedom is another’s prison and by condoning the burka you are sentencing millions of women to subjugation, separation from society, and to life imprisonment. That said, I’ll take an educated guess and say that you’ve never spoken to a burka-wearing lady about the burka – or to a Muslim man who forces his wife and daughters to wear it - so that’s all I have to say to you on the subject.
Naomi - // andy-hughes, high ideals are very commendable – but only if they’re well-thought through – and yours aren’t. //
In your opinion - once again, lest anyone confuse the first and second halves of the statement as both being facts.
//One woman’s freedom is another’s prison and by condoning the burka you are sentencing millions of women to subjugation, separation from society, and to life imprisonment. //
Thank you for the unrequired lesson in civics – I have not said that I condone the burka, so please don’t assume my view and then criticise me when you are wrong about what I think.
Because some women are oppressed by being made to wear a burka is not an adequate reason for another culture to take it upon itself to say that everyone has to stop wearing it.
That’s like saying no western women should wear makeup or high heels because some firms insist on their employees wearing them to work. That is oppression – but we don’t deny the choice of every other woman because of it.
//That said, I’ll take an educated guess and say that you’ve never spoken to a burka-wearing lady about the burka – or to a Muslim man who forces his wife and daughters to wear it - so that’s all I have to say to you on the subject. //
At the risk of sounding like a cracked record, I don’t need to be any kind of expert with multiple canvassed views to be able to express an opinion. If you believe anyone needs a level of expertise in order to voice a view, then you should be taking that position with everyone else on every thread on every section to which you contribute.
But you don’t – just with me, discussing Islam.
Interesting.
In your opinion - once again, lest anyone confuse the first and second halves of the statement as both being facts.
//One woman’s freedom is another’s prison and by condoning the burka you are sentencing millions of women to subjugation, separation from society, and to life imprisonment. //
Thank you for the unrequired lesson in civics – I have not said that I condone the burka, so please don’t assume my view and then criticise me when you are wrong about what I think.
Because some women are oppressed by being made to wear a burka is not an adequate reason for another culture to take it upon itself to say that everyone has to stop wearing it.
That’s like saying no western women should wear makeup or high heels because some firms insist on their employees wearing them to work. That is oppression – but we don’t deny the choice of every other woman because of it.
//That said, I’ll take an educated guess and say that you’ve never spoken to a burka-wearing lady about the burka – or to a Muslim man who forces his wife and daughters to wear it - so that’s all I have to say to you on the subject. //
At the risk of sounding like a cracked record, I don’t need to be any kind of expert with multiple canvassed views to be able to express an opinion. If you believe anyone needs a level of expertise in order to voice a view, then you should be taking that position with everyone else on every thread on every section to which you contribute.
But you don’t – just with me, discussing Islam.
Interesting.
Naomi - // andy-hughes, I take issue with you because so often what you call your 'opinions' on Islam are totally and utterly misguided. //
If you are going to debate evenly and fairly, you need to accept that just because you claim a level of knowledge about a subject does not entitle you to the intellectual high ground when others say what they think.
If I state a fact, and it is incorrect, that is one thing, but my opinion is just that - my opinion, and I not willing to have it sniffily dismissed by you because you happen to think you know better.
In my opinion, some women wear clothes from choice, some from oppression. I am not able to prove that, it is my opinion, but you are not able to disprove it either, so my opinion stands.
You don't have to like it, or agree with it, but you are wrong to constantly infer that I am ignorant because my viewpoint differs from yours.
If you are going to debate evenly and fairly, you need to accept that just because you claim a level of knowledge about a subject does not entitle you to the intellectual high ground when others say what they think.
If I state a fact, and it is incorrect, that is one thing, but my opinion is just that - my opinion, and I not willing to have it sniffily dismissed by you because you happen to think you know better.
In my opinion, some women wear clothes from choice, some from oppression. I am not able to prove that, it is my opinion, but you are not able to disprove it either, so my opinion stands.
You don't have to like it, or agree with it, but you are wrong to constantly infer that I am ignorant because my viewpoint differs from yours.
It has to be said that I know several Muslim ladies who are most definitely not oppressed who choose to wear either the veil or a Burkha, so no wearing clothing someone in the West doesn't approve of does not automatically equate to being oppressed and I would not dream of trying to ban anyone's clothing.
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