News1 min ago
President Donald Trump Says He Believes Waterboarding Works
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Trump wants to bring back torture, despite Congress voting overwhelmingly to ban it recently. He also wants to expand America's use of keeping people in prison abroad, without charge or trial.
America....land of the free !
Trump wants to bring back torture, despite Congress voting overwhelmingly to ban it recently. He also wants to expand America's use of keeping people in prison abroad, without charge or trial.
America....land of the free !
Answers
He's not listening. I read 'Stolen Years' by Paul Hill, one of the Guildford four, and they admitted things they didn't do because of torture and sleep deprivation. Trumps attitude is scary.
08:33 Thu 26th Jan 2017
Torture (from the Latin tortus, "twisted") is the act of deliberately inflicting physical or psychological pain on an organism in order to fulfill some desire of the torturer or compel some action from the victim.
Torture does work if it didn't why would people have used it for thousands of years, so in that case Trump isn't wrong. Its psychological as well, you lot are having a fit over him actually saying those words, what are the US enemies saying - "oh bu&&er, they might use it with state support to use it."
Military leaders are that much more sensible, people involved know that psychological torture is far more effective than physical, despite ALL the great physical tortures ever invented things like sleep deprivation and sensory deprivation are still the most valuable. It's used because it works and in some situations you should be glad it does!
Trump is an abhorrent man but he's been elected President so like every one before him, he'll do what he sees fit.
Torture does work if it didn't why would people have used it for thousands of years, so in that case Trump isn't wrong. Its psychological as well, you lot are having a fit over him actually saying those words, what are the US enemies saying - "oh bu&&er, they might use it with state support to use it."
Military leaders are that much more sensible, people involved know that psychological torture is far more effective than physical, despite ALL the great physical tortures ever invented things like sleep deprivation and sensory deprivation are still the most valuable. It's used because it works and in some situations you should be glad it does!
Trump is an abhorrent man but he's been elected President so like every one before him, he'll do what he sees fit.
Ninefingers - //It's used because it works and in some situations you should be glad it does! //
I am at a loss when people say 'It works ...' to understand exactly what they mean.
If it means that the person tortured will 'talk' then yes, that is true.
If it means that the person tortured will answer questions accurately - that is certainly not so clear cut.
Human nature suggests that, whatever question will make the torture stop is the one that the sufferer will answer.
The assumption that this answer is the one the torturer is seeking is a seriously faulty premise.
What you have is a situation where one person is thinking - "Answer my questions truthfully and fully and this will stop."
But the other person is thinking "I will tell you whatever makes you stop doing this, and if I can make you believe me when I lie to you, then that is the result I am after."
That doesn't fulfil my criteria of 'working'.
I am at a loss when people say 'It works ...' to understand exactly what they mean.
If it means that the person tortured will 'talk' then yes, that is true.
If it means that the person tortured will answer questions accurately - that is certainly not so clear cut.
Human nature suggests that, whatever question will make the torture stop is the one that the sufferer will answer.
The assumption that this answer is the one the torturer is seeking is a seriously faulty premise.
What you have is a situation where one person is thinking - "Answer my questions truthfully and fully and this will stop."
But the other person is thinking "I will tell you whatever makes you stop doing this, and if I can make you believe me when I lie to you, then that is the result I am after."
That doesn't fulfil my criteria of 'working'.
You never know what someone will say to make it stop, the whole point of using whatever means is necessary is to get them to talk, once they start talking there are better, less intrusive ways to get to the truth.
The doctrine is really easy, if you are in a position that you have to get as much information as possible to protect you men or prevent an act of terrorism you do what you have to.
The doctrine is really easy, if you are in a position that you have to get as much information as possible to protect you men or prevent an act of terrorism you do what you have to.
Ninefingers - //The doctrine is really easy, if you are in a position that you have to get as much information as possible to protect you men or prevent an act of terrorism you do what you have to. //
I could find you a similar justification for every single abhorrant immoral and illegal act perpetrated on one human being by another.
But that does not make the justification valid - it only makes it what you tell yourself to justify what you have done.
Remember Eichmann, when questioned about the gas chambers/ His response ' They were only Jews ...'.
Anyone can convince themselves that anything they do has a valid reason that makes it worthwhile - but somebody somewhere has to bring in a sense of humanity and reality.
The general consensus is that civilised forward-thinking compassionate societies do not torture people. I am fine with that.
I could find you a similar justification for every single abhorrant immoral and illegal act perpetrated on one human being by another.
But that does not make the justification valid - it only makes it what you tell yourself to justify what you have done.
Remember Eichmann, when questioned about the gas chambers/ His response ' They were only Jews ...'.
Anyone can convince themselves that anything they do has a valid reason that makes it worthwhile - but somebody somewhere has to bring in a sense of humanity and reality.
The general consensus is that civilised forward-thinking compassionate societies do not torture people. I am fine with that.
Ninefingers - // //The general consensus is that civilised forward-thinking compassionate societies do not torture people. I am fine with that.//
You carry on with that Utopian wonderland andy-hughes, out there in the big wide world our troops and every other army will do it's best to protect that utopia for you //
The idea that my view makes me an airhead living in Utopia, protected by the realists who do the dirty stuff so I don't have to, is common on here to the point of tedium.
I believe that if people who think like that were to dial down the machismo and think more with their minds and less with their knee-jerk emotions, the world could start to be a better place.
I have stated times without number, that Muslim fundamentalists believe that the West is morally corrupt and determined to destroy their faith.
Mr Trump is acting like their poster boy with his pronouncements.
Jihadists don't need any justification for their horrible crimes of murder and fear, but President Trump seems hell bent on giving it to them anyway.
You carry on with that Utopian wonderland andy-hughes, out there in the big wide world our troops and every other army will do it's best to protect that utopia for you //
The idea that my view makes me an airhead living in Utopia, protected by the realists who do the dirty stuff so I don't have to, is common on here to the point of tedium.
I believe that if people who think like that were to dial down the machismo and think more with their minds and less with their knee-jerk emotions, the world could start to be a better place.
I have stated times without number, that Muslim fundamentalists believe that the West is morally corrupt and determined to destroy their faith.
Mr Trump is acting like their poster boy with his pronouncements.
Jihadists don't need any justification for their horrible crimes of murder and fear, but President Trump seems hell bent on giving it to them anyway.
//I believe that if people who think like that were to dial down the machismo and think more with their minds and less with their knee-jerk emotions, the world could start to be a better place. //
Sadly this is the attitude that's brought society to where it is, a downright refusal to see what goes on in the real world and that just because we decide to be civilised everyone else will be.
It's nothing to do with machismo or knee jerk reactions and if you understood the training people involved in these roles go through you wouldn't make a crass statement like that above. The world is a dirty place and there is an ever increasing group who don't want to recognise that some thing are necessary whether they are nice and civilised or not.
Stick with your utopia, the view must be sunny and bright from there
Sadly this is the attitude that's brought society to where it is, a downright refusal to see what goes on in the real world and that just because we decide to be civilised everyone else will be.
It's nothing to do with machismo or knee jerk reactions and if you understood the training people involved in these roles go through you wouldn't make a crass statement like that above. The world is a dirty place and there is an ever increasing group who don't want to recognise that some thing are necessary whether they are nice and civilised or not.
Stick with your utopia, the view must be sunny and bright from there
Ninefingers - it is easy to dismiss anyone's contrary view with the 'You don't understand / live in the real world, like I do ... ' reply.
Since I don't torture people, and I guess you probably don't, we are talking academically here.
Yes there are people who think as you do, and people who think as I do.
One set of people think the world is a nasty place, and they are intent on perpetuating that nastiness because it chimes with what they think is the right solution - violence.
The other set of people think the world is fundamentally a good place, and they are intent on trying to sort out the nasty minority with what they think is the right solution - education and dialogue.
Fortunately, for the future of the human race, there are more like me, and less like you.
Since I don't torture people, and I guess you probably don't, we are talking academically here.
Yes there are people who think as you do, and people who think as I do.
One set of people think the world is a nasty place, and they are intent on perpetuating that nastiness because it chimes with what they think is the right solution - violence.
The other set of people think the world is fundamentally a good place, and they are intent on trying to sort out the nasty minority with what they think is the right solution - education and dialogue.
Fortunately, for the future of the human race, there are more like me, and less like you.
In principle, I am against torture or any form of cruelty, but I have to ask myself, if I had any say in getting information out of that most despicable human being, Anis Amri, if he hadn't been killed in a shoot-out with the Italian police - he who shot the innocent Polish lorry driver, then drove his truck into the Berin Christmas market killing 12 men women and children, and injuring 48 others (many of whom will suffer for life)- which might lead to finding his accomplices, and to preventing further atrocities. It would be hard to not say, incarceration just isn't enough for this guy, get that information from him by whatever means it takes.
No I don't but after years in the job I know people who have been in that position. They are clever erudite people with immense amounts of training into doing the job correctly, out intelligence officers are the best there is and your comments are rather offensive. Violence is the last step, absolutely the last step and as I said initially simpler forms have better results, sleep and sensory deprivation are still the most efficient.
As for your comments about more like minded people like you - that's part of the problem too many don't want to believe that these things still happen.
As for your comments about more like minded people like you - that's part of the problem too many don't want to believe that these things still happen.
Khandro - I understand your point.
But I cannot agree with it.
As long as we find justifications for these horrible acts, we are sliding down the slope to inhumanity and immorality that is the default position of the people we loathe and despise.
The problem is, finding a justification for a deplorable act like torture simply makes it easier to live with, and opens the door to the next lowest form of behaviour on the list.
The only way to avoid going down that path - and human nature will always find an excuse, as I advised in my earlier post, is not to take the first step.
You cannot occupy the moral high ground against deviant immoral human beings, if you spend time behind closed doors doing the same things they do.
But I cannot agree with it.
As long as we find justifications for these horrible acts, we are sliding down the slope to inhumanity and immorality that is the default position of the people we loathe and despise.
The problem is, finding a justification for a deplorable act like torture simply makes it easier to live with, and opens the door to the next lowest form of behaviour on the list.
The only way to avoid going down that path - and human nature will always find an excuse, as I advised in my earlier post, is not to take the first step.
You cannot occupy the moral high ground against deviant immoral human beings, if you spend time behind closed doors doing the same things they do.
Ninefingers - //No I don't but after years in the job I know people who have been in that position. They are clever erudite people with immense amounts of training into doing the job correctly, out intelligence officers are the best there is and your comments are rather offensive. Violence is the last step, absolutely the last step and as I said initially simpler forms have better results, sleep and sensory deprivation are still the most efficient. //
The cold detached way in which you talk about treatment of other human beings makes me shudder.
My comments offend you - fine, I feel exactly the same way.
// As for your comments about more like minded people like you - that's part of the problem too many don't want to believe that these things still happen. //
Do I know that horrible things happen in the world?
Absolutely.
Do I accept that a portion of our military personnel have their basic humanity 'trained' out of them to allow them to do more horrible things?
Absolutely not.
The cold detached way in which you talk about treatment of other human beings makes me shudder.
My comments offend you - fine, I feel exactly the same way.
// As for your comments about more like minded people like you - that's part of the problem too many don't want to believe that these things still happen. //
Do I know that horrible things happen in the world?
Absolutely.
Do I accept that a portion of our military personnel have their basic humanity 'trained' out of them to allow them to do more horrible things?
Absolutely not.
andy-hughes; If among those murdered by Imri had been your mother and wife taking your child to a Christmas market (think about it!) rather than gaining information which might prevent anything like it happening again, you would think that finding him guilty and locking him up would be all that was required?
//Another standard response - what would you do if it was your child?
It wasn't, so I can't comment as though it was can I//
A standard response, if ever there was one.
Oh, and just to add a character reference; "Anis Amri, the Tunisian jihadist who attacked the Christmas market in Berlin, used at least 14 different identities, which he used to obtain social welfare benefits under different names in different municipalities."
It wasn't, so I can't comment as though it was can I//
A standard response, if ever there was one.
Oh, and just to add a character reference; "Anis Amri, the Tunisian jihadist who attacked the Christmas market in Berlin, used at least 14 different identities, which he used to obtain social welfare benefits under different names in different municipalities."
Khandro - ////Another standard response - what would you do if it was your child?
It wasn't, so I can't comment as though it was can I//
A standard response, if ever there was one. //
Then we are equal. What else would you expect me to say?
People who blithely talk of torture as though it's a game of ping pong are able to do so because they have the luxury of viewing torture as an abstract concept because someone else does their dirty work for them.
//Oh, and just to add a character reference; "Anis Amri, the Tunisian jihadist who attacked the Christmas market in Berlin, used at least 14 different identities, which he used to obtain social welfare benefits under different names in different municipalities." //
I am unsure what, if anything, you think is added to your point by that quote?
I am aware of who Mr Amri is, and what he is. I read the papers, just like you do.
It wasn't, so I can't comment as though it was can I//
A standard response, if ever there was one. //
Then we are equal. What else would you expect me to say?
People who blithely talk of torture as though it's a game of ping pong are able to do so because they have the luxury of viewing torture as an abstract concept because someone else does their dirty work for them.
//Oh, and just to add a character reference; "Anis Amri, the Tunisian jihadist who attacked the Christmas market in Berlin, used at least 14 different identities, which he used to obtain social welfare benefits under different names in different municipalities." //
I am unsure what, if anything, you think is added to your point by that quote?
I am aware of who Mr Amri is, and what he is. I read the papers, just like you do.
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