ChatterBank5 mins ago
The European Union: In Or Out?
This poll is closed.
If the EU referendum happened tomorrow, which way would you vote?
- Out - 208 votes
- 70%
- In - 91 votes
- 30%
Stats until: 05:15 Mon 06th May 2024 (Refreshed every 5 minutes)
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Svejk
/// In another few years we'll do what we're ordered to do. Or the EU Army will give us what for. ///
Not only their Army but also their Navy is keeping their eyes on us.
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But we are ready come what may:
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“I like the idea of staying in a reformed Europe.”
The EU doesn’t do reform, ellipsis. Never has, never will. All it does is increase its integrationalist policies. Mr Cameron achieved 5% of sod all in his reform negotiations and that was with the threat (he said) that if things did not go his way he would recommend withdrawal.
“With a really tight In vote, the Outers would be justified to call for another vote within a few years - maybe even three years, i.e. within the life of this parliament.”
Hell will freeze over before another referendum is called – whoever is in “power” (as it will laughingly be called by then) in the UK. This referendum was only agreed because Tory voters were drifting away to UKIP. What is far more likely is that the serious structural defects that the EU has with both its policies and its lack of democracy the entire thing will disintegrate in an unholy mess. And that will make a controlled and agreeable "Brexit" seem like a Sunday school outing.
“Those few years could be used for the EU to properly begin to reform (or not).”
See above
“Should it not reform, then it's likely the next vote would be for Out, and I'd reluctantly agree with that.”
Why the reluctance? If you don’t like a club and it won’t change you simply leave. It owes you nothing, you owe it nothing. It’s a mutually beneficial relationship whilst it lasts, that’s all.
“I don't want either "In" or "Out", I want "In Something Better".”
The choices you have on 23rd June are “Out” or “In something that will rapidly become infinitely worse (if you could imagine such a thing)”
You need to challenge your assumptions.
The EU doesn’t do reform, ellipsis. Never has, never will. All it does is increase its integrationalist policies. Mr Cameron achieved 5% of sod all in his reform negotiations and that was with the threat (he said) that if things did not go his way he would recommend withdrawal.
“With a really tight In vote, the Outers would be justified to call for another vote within a few years - maybe even three years, i.e. within the life of this parliament.”
Hell will freeze over before another referendum is called – whoever is in “power” (as it will laughingly be called by then) in the UK. This referendum was only agreed because Tory voters were drifting away to UKIP. What is far more likely is that the serious structural defects that the EU has with both its policies and its lack of democracy the entire thing will disintegrate in an unholy mess. And that will make a controlled and agreeable "Brexit" seem like a Sunday school outing.
“Those few years could be used for the EU to properly begin to reform (or not).”
See above
“Should it not reform, then it's likely the next vote would be for Out, and I'd reluctantly agree with that.”
Why the reluctance? If you don’t like a club and it won’t change you simply leave. It owes you nothing, you owe it nothing. It’s a mutually beneficial relationship whilst it lasts, that’s all.
“I don't want either "In" or "Out", I want "In Something Better".”
The choices you have on 23rd June are “Out” or “In something that will rapidly become infinitely worse (if you could imagine such a thing)”
You need to challenge your assumptions.
Most of us on here wont be around when it happens but Id lay a bet that at X point in time, whoever is left in the eussr, that at least one of those countries will have freedom fighters/terrorit groups whatever you want to call them, setting off bombs etc to gain their independence back...
it will be the same as when various groups decided theyd had enough of the rule of rome in that empire..uprisings etc...history repeats and repeats but nobody seems to learn the lessons...
it will be the same as when various groups decided theyd had enough of the rule of rome in that empire..uprisings etc...history repeats and repeats but nobody seems to learn the lessons...
Baz
//Most of us on here wont be around when it happens but Id lay a bet that at X point in time, whoever is left in the eussr, that at least one of those countries will have freedom fighters/terrorit groups whatever you want to call them, setting off bombs etc to gain their independence back... //
Just like the clowns who kicked off the 'Arab Spring'. Looks now like it sprang back at them with a vengence.
//Most of us on here wont be around when it happens but Id lay a bet that at X point in time, whoever is left in the eussr, that at least one of those countries will have freedom fighters/terrorit groups whatever you want to call them, setting off bombs etc to gain their independence back... //
Just like the clowns who kicked off the 'Arab Spring'. Looks now like it sprang back at them with a vengence.
The Reunion, on Radio 4 last Sunday, discussing the Maastricht Treaty, made interesting listening. Available on catchup here:
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The closing comment from David Davies (a Brexiter) was very good:
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We're different from a number of other countries for the following reasons. The Germans and Italians came in to the original iron and steel community from a dictatorship; the Spaniards came in from Franco; the Portuguese came in from Caetano; the Greeks came in from the colonels; Eastern Europe came in from under the jackboot of Soviet domination. We came in after 150 years of liberal democracy that worked quite well, so our attitude to Europe is not the same as theirs. We believe in our own democracy. They see Europe as the symbol of a liberal democracy. It's a very different viewpoint.
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We Brits don't see the need for a European Union to protect us from our own state government, whereas many other members do! This is how and why the EU is seen as a force for peace in most of Europe.
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The closing comment from David Davies (a Brexiter) was very good:
---------------------------------------------
We're different from a number of other countries for the following reasons. The Germans and Italians came in to the original iron and steel community from a dictatorship; the Spaniards came in from Franco; the Portuguese came in from Caetano; the Greeks came in from the colonels; Eastern Europe came in from under the jackboot of Soviet domination. We came in after 150 years of liberal democracy that worked quite well, so our attitude to Europe is not the same as theirs. We believe in our own democracy. They see Europe as the symbol of a liberal democracy. It's a very different viewpoint.
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We Brits don't see the need for a European Union to protect us from our own state government, whereas many other members do! This is how and why the EU is seen as a force for peace in most of Europe.
Quite so, Ellipsis. And Mr Davis’s remarks are very appropriate. The UK is very different from the countries in mainland Europe. No, we do not need protection from our own government (which was the original aim of the European Convention on Human Rights) but ironically we already need protection from the dictatorship that is the EU whose administrators think nothing of deposing an elected government to suit their aims. That need will increase dramatically as “ever closer union” is pursued and anyone thinking that Mr Cameron had negotiated an opt out for the UK from that overriding aim seriously needs their bumps felt!
you do realise that the European Union was a CIA project don't you !.
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Jackdaw - I joined the 'Vote Leave' campaign! Yes, I actually put some (ill-spared) cash where my mouth is. I now have a badge, certificate, newsletter, advance info. on meetings etc. and should get posters and Lit. nearer the time. Quite exciting, never been a political activist before. A nice little enamelled badge, which could be worn as a tie-pin - OH is waiting for his. :)
jourdain..where it now whilst you can... if the vote is to stay (and i fear it will be), in years to come their stasi will on you like a plague with orders to wipe out and eradicate all and any forms of opposition and dissidence in all corners of the empire ... youll be a victim of their stormtroopers if youre seen wearing it !
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