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Victory For Common Sense?
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Jim, I’ve read svejk’s post and I agree with him. I think I’d be right in saying that the majority of men who dress as women are not transgender. You say // you probably wouldn't even know in many cases one way or another anyway//, a point that has already been made – and that is the point. I wouldn’t know and therefore I prefer to err on the side of caution.
Banned transgendered women from using women's toilets because some male perverts might dress up as women to 'ogle' women in toilets doesn't meet the requirements of common sense.
It's along the same lines as banning everyone from carrying rucksacks on public transport, because there has been a number of terrorist attack where rucksacks have been used to carry explosives.
We need to step back and perform risk assessments when thinking about changes such as these.
Try weighing up this - the risk of some perv going out and knitting himself with a complete women's outfit (including wig, make up etc) in order to ogle women in a women's loo...with the likelihood of a transgendered woman facing verbal or physical harassment if forced to use a men's loo.
I think the latter is far more likely than the former.
It's along the same lines as banning everyone from carrying rucksacks on public transport, because there has been a number of terrorist attack where rucksacks have been used to carry explosives.
We need to step back and perform risk assessments when thinking about changes such as these.
Try weighing up this - the risk of some perv going out and knitting himself with a complete women's outfit (including wig, make up etc) in order to ogle women in a women's loo...with the likelihood of a transgendered woman facing verbal or physical harassment if forced to use a men's loo.
I think the latter is far more likely than the former.
-- answer removed --
divebuddy
You may think that, but it's not actually true. Councils up and down the country have been closing public toilets to save money, rather than to short cut any nefarious behaviours.
Also, unlike in your day, gay people don't need to go cottaging now...because of Grindr!
Honest - if councils were closing down toilets for the reason you state, they would also be fencing off lay-bys...you know...to prevent all those 'normal' people who go dogging every weekend...eh?
Nah - I think it must be one of your more moronic mates who fed you that line. Toilets are being shut down because of costs...and cottaging has been overtaken by dogging.
Surely you see that?
You may think that, but it's not actually true. Councils up and down the country have been closing public toilets to save money, rather than to short cut any nefarious behaviours.
Also, unlike in your day, gay people don't need to go cottaging now...because of Grindr!
Honest - if councils were closing down toilets for the reason you state, they would also be fencing off lay-bys...you know...to prevent all those 'normal' people who go dogging every weekend...eh?
Nah - I think it must be one of your more moronic mates who fed you that line. Toilets are being shut down because of costs...and cottaging has been overtaken by dogging.
Surely you see that?
-- answer removed --
Quite a few recent examples of misuse of public toilets by the great and the good.
Mustn't forget George Michael.
Timeline of historic cases[edit]
Date
Event
1943 Newspaper editor Clarence McNulty[25] was arrested for wilfully and obscenely exposing his person in the Lang Park toilets near Wynyard railway station in Sydney, Australia. He denied the charges and this early case highlighted the practice of the police using pretty policemen[26] (i.e. as "bait") to entrap the public. As only one police officer was present in the toilet, the magistrate determined that the police were unable to correctly corroborate the evidence and gave McNulty the benefit of the doubt.[27]
1946 Sir George Robert Mowbray, 5th Baronet Mowbray, was fined for importuning men at Piccadilly Circus Underground station.[28]
1940s Tom Driberg charged with indecent assault after two men shared his bed in the 1940s and used his position as a journalist several times to get off later charges when caught soliciting in public toilets by the police.[29][30]
1953 Actor Sir John Gielgud was arrested and fined £10 for cottaging ("persistently importuning").[31][32][33]
1953 MP William J. Field was arrested for persistently importuning in a public toilet. Field appealed against the conviction twice but failed on both occasions.[34][35][36][37]
1954 American mathematician John Forbes Nash, Jr. arrested in a public toilet in Santa Monica, California. He was stripped of his top-secret security clearance and fired from the think tank where he was a consultant.[38]
1956 Sir David Milne-Watson was fined for importuning at South Kensington railway station.[39]
1962 On 6 November 1962, actor Wilfrid Brambell was arrested in a toilet in Shepherd's Bush for persistently importuning.[40]
1962 In 1962, the Mansfield Police Department conducted a sting operation in which they covertly filmed men having sex in the public restroom underneath Central Park. Thirty eight men were convicted and jailed for sodomy. After the arrest, the city closed the restrooms and filled them in with dirt. The police later made a training film of the footage. It was rereleased in 2007 as "Tearoom".[41]
1964 In October, President Lyndon B. Johnson's aide Walter Jenkins was arrested in a YMCA in Washington, D.C., and the case was subsequently dismissed.[42][43]
1968 Michael Turnbull was arrested in Hull for cottaging in a public toilet, before he became Bishop of Durham.[44]
1975 In September 1975, actor Peter Wyngarde was arrested (under his real name, Cyril Louis Goldbert) in Gloucester bus station public toilets for gross indecency with Richard Jack Whalley (a truck driver). He was fined £75.[45]
1976 Sixty-six-year-old retired U.S. Major General Edwin Walker made sexual advances to an undercover police officer in a restroom at a park in Dallas, Texas on June 23, 1976, and was arrested for public lewdness. The general pleaded no contest and was fined $1,000 and court costs.[46]
1976 Former Judge G. Harrold Carswell was convicted of battery for advances he made to an undercover police officer in a Tallahassee men's room.[47]
1981 Coronation Street actor Peter Dudley was observed exposing himself to another man in a public toilet in Didsbury, Manchester, and was charged with importuning. He pleaded guilty and was fined £200. Some months later, Dudley was charged again with gross indecency for an alleged similar offence, though this time he claimed he was not guilty and had been set up by the police. A Crown Court jury failed to reach a verdict, but while waiting for a retrial, Dudley suffered a series of strokes and heart attacks and died in October 1983.[48]
1984 Actor Leonard Sachs was fined for importuning in a public toilet.[49]
1988 Australian radio personality Alan Jones was arrested in a public lavatory block in London's West End and charged with two counts of outraging public decency by behaving in an indecent manner under the Westminster by-laws. He was later cleared of
Mustn't forget George Michael.
Timeline of historic cases[edit]
Date
Event
1943 Newspaper editor Clarence McNulty[25] was arrested for wilfully and obscenely exposing his person in the Lang Park toilets near Wynyard railway station in Sydney, Australia. He denied the charges and this early case highlighted the practice of the police using pretty policemen[26] (i.e. as "bait") to entrap the public. As only one police officer was present in the toilet, the magistrate determined that the police were unable to correctly corroborate the evidence and gave McNulty the benefit of the doubt.[27]
1946 Sir George Robert Mowbray, 5th Baronet Mowbray, was fined for importuning men at Piccadilly Circus Underground station.[28]
1940s Tom Driberg charged with indecent assault after two men shared his bed in the 1940s and used his position as a journalist several times to get off later charges when caught soliciting in public toilets by the police.[29][30]
1953 Actor Sir John Gielgud was arrested and fined £10 for cottaging ("persistently importuning").[31][32][33]
1953 MP William J. Field was arrested for persistently importuning in a public toilet. Field appealed against the conviction twice but failed on both occasions.[34][35][36][37]
1954 American mathematician John Forbes Nash, Jr. arrested in a public toilet in Santa Monica, California. He was stripped of his top-secret security clearance and fired from the think tank where he was a consultant.[38]
1956 Sir David Milne-Watson was fined for importuning at South Kensington railway station.[39]
1962 On 6 November 1962, actor Wilfrid Brambell was arrested in a toilet in Shepherd's Bush for persistently importuning.[40]
1962 In 1962, the Mansfield Police Department conducted a sting operation in which they covertly filmed men having sex in the public restroom underneath Central Park. Thirty eight men were convicted and jailed for sodomy. After the arrest, the city closed the restrooms and filled them in with dirt. The police later made a training film of the footage. It was rereleased in 2007 as "Tearoom".[41]
1964 In October, President Lyndon B. Johnson's aide Walter Jenkins was arrested in a YMCA in Washington, D.C., and the case was subsequently dismissed.[42][43]
1968 Michael Turnbull was arrested in Hull for cottaging in a public toilet, before he became Bishop of Durham.[44]
1975 In September 1975, actor Peter Wyngarde was arrested (under his real name, Cyril Louis Goldbert) in Gloucester bus station public toilets for gross indecency with Richard Jack Whalley (a truck driver). He was fined £75.[45]
1976 Sixty-six-year-old retired U.S. Major General Edwin Walker made sexual advances to an undercover police officer in a restroom at a park in Dallas, Texas on June 23, 1976, and was arrested for public lewdness. The general pleaded no contest and was fined $1,000 and court costs.[46]
1976 Former Judge G. Harrold Carswell was convicted of battery for advances he made to an undercover police officer in a Tallahassee men's room.[47]
1981 Coronation Street actor Peter Dudley was observed exposing himself to another man in a public toilet in Didsbury, Manchester, and was charged with importuning. He pleaded guilty and was fined £200. Some months later, Dudley was charged again with gross indecency for an alleged similar offence, though this time he claimed he was not guilty and had been set up by the police. A Crown Court jury failed to reach a verdict, but while waiting for a retrial, Dudley suffered a series of strokes and heart attacks and died in October 1983.[48]
1984 Actor Leonard Sachs was fined for importuning in a public toilet.[49]
1988 Australian radio personality Alan Jones was arrested in a public lavatory block in London's West End and charged with two counts of outraging public decency by behaving in an indecent manner under the Westminster by-laws. He was later cleared of
-- answer removed --
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
1990 British pop star Stedman Pearson (of the group Five Star) appeared at Kingston Magistrates Court in October 1990 and pleaded guilty to a charge of public indecency after being arrested in a public toilet in New Malden in London.[51][52][53][54][55][56]
1998 In April 1998, pop star George Michael was arrested for "engaging in a lewd act" in a public toilet in Los Angeles after a sting operation by local police. Although he considered the arrest to be police entrapment, he pleaded "no contest" to the charge in court and was fined $810 and ordered to do 80 hours of community service.[57][58] Later that year, Michael satirised the events in his music video for the song "Outside" and was sued by one of the officers in the original arrest for portraying him as non-heterosexual and mocking him. The suit was ultimately dismissed.[59][60][61]
1998 In October 1998, UK Labour Party MP Ron Davies was mugged at knife point on Clapham Common. He resigned after it became clear he was engaging in homosexual activities in a known cottaging area.[62][63][64][65]
2007 In June 2007, US Senator Larry Craig was arrested in the men's public toilet in the Lindbergh Terminal of the Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport in Minneapolis, Minnesota, for allegedly soliciting sex. Craig later pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct and announced his intent to resign from his post as Republican senator from Idaho[66] which he later rescinded. He contested his guilty plea and decided to serve out his term, but did not run for re-election in 2008.[67][68]
The public convenience mentioned in the 1990 incident is still there next to the Plough P.H. in the Malden Road. Yes it is closed by Kingston Council since that incident took place.
.
1990 British pop star Stedman Pearson (of the group Five Star) appeared at Kingston Magistrates Court in October 1990 and pleaded guilty to a charge of public indecency after being arrested in a public toilet in New Malden in London.[51][52][53][54][55][56]
1998 In April 1998, pop star George Michael was arrested for "engaging in a lewd act" in a public toilet in Los Angeles after a sting operation by local police. Although he considered the arrest to be police entrapment, he pleaded "no contest" to the charge in court and was fined $810 and ordered to do 80 hours of community service.[57][58] Later that year, Michael satirised the events in his music video for the song "Outside" and was sued by one of the officers in the original arrest for portraying him as non-heterosexual and mocking him. The suit was ultimately dismissed.[59][60][61]
1998 In October 1998, UK Labour Party MP Ron Davies was mugged at knife point on Clapham Common. He resigned after it became clear he was engaging in homosexual activities in a known cottaging area.[62][63][64][65]
2007 In June 2007, US Senator Larry Craig was arrested in the men's public toilet in the Lindbergh Terminal of the Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport in Minneapolis, Minnesota, for allegedly soliciting sex. Craig later pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct and announced his intent to resign from his post as Republican senator from Idaho[66] which he later rescinded. He contested his guilty plea and decided to serve out his term, but did not run for re-election in 2008.[67][68]
The public convenience mentioned in the 1990 incident is still there next to the Plough P.H. in the Malden Road. Yes it is closed by Kingston Council since that incident took place.
.
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