Film, Media & TV0 min ago
Why pray?
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Why pray? If it changes God's mind then he is not sovereign. If it does not change God's mind then it is superfluous.
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It's not a good idea,FarKenOath, to emulate Octavius's style which uses personal abuse in lieu of argument. It impresses no-one and gets us nowhere.
The three things I asked you to rebut (just to get the measure of your religiosity and to divert you from expounding dogma into debating) are in the fourth paragraph of my last post - the one starting 'God...'
Have a go.
The three things I asked you to rebut (just to get the measure of your religiosity and to divert you from expounding dogma into debating) are in the fourth paragraph of my last post - the one starting 'God...'
Have a go.
What I have leant in last year and a half that only people with knowledge of the whole world are theists and all the others are illogical. Where it is logical to believe that whole universe is just a produce of accident and every thing else has a creator. Even a new born child can see the illogical logic here.
keyplus90, the only people on this site who use the word 'accident' regarding the origins of the universe are religionists, who put that word into the mouths of others.
The only intelligent answer to the question 'How did the universe come about?' is 'We don't know.'
I don't know; you don't know; the President of the Royal Society doesn't know; the Archbish of Cant doesn't know; the Pope doesn't know. Unfortunately, religionists don't like this intellectual humility and so revert to primitive man's idea: If you can't explain something, put it down to some god or other. Hence the proliferation of creation myths across the world's religions.
The fallacy in the creation idea has been well rehearsed on this site before, but, just for you, here is a quick summary:
If nothing can exist without a creator then this must apply to the creator, giving you a creator-of-the-creator. But this can't exist without a creator..... and so on, producing an infinite succession of creators.
Faced with this absurdity, creationists usually cheat by claiming that the rule must be applied only once, to arrive at one creator, and then abandoned.
And you talk of illogic! Best to stick to 'I don't know.' It's safer and also truer.
Octavius as cryptic as ever, I see.
The only intelligent answer to the question 'How did the universe come about?' is 'We don't know.'
I don't know; you don't know; the President of the Royal Society doesn't know; the Archbish of Cant doesn't know; the Pope doesn't know. Unfortunately, religionists don't like this intellectual humility and so revert to primitive man's idea: If you can't explain something, put it down to some god or other. Hence the proliferation of creation myths across the world's religions.
The fallacy in the creation idea has been well rehearsed on this site before, but, just for you, here is a quick summary:
If nothing can exist without a creator then this must apply to the creator, giving you a creator-of-the-creator. But this can't exist without a creator..... and so on, producing an infinite succession of creators.
Faced with this absurdity, creationists usually cheat by claiming that the rule must be applied only once, to arrive at one creator, and then abandoned.
And you talk of illogic! Best to stick to 'I don't know.' It's safer and also truer.
Octavius as cryptic as ever, I see.
It amazes me that there are so many self righteous ******* in this debate. Everyone has their own idea (except MWB of course who has everyone elses) and everyone is so damn sure they are right that the chance of anything other than personal criticism, goading and mud slinging is impossible. Even the fact that everyone assumes I am a Christian is proof that you all have pigeon holed everyone else as either loony dogma spouting god botherers or unsaved heathens and will not be moved from your preconceived notions.
I am not a Christian, never have been and likely never will be. As I said at the start, I only posted because the question was so stupid that it had to be a joke and I was hoping (all to no avail it seems) that MWB would add something worth hearing but it was not to be. At least everyone else seems to at least have enough conviction in their beliefs to have a go at me with a few balls.
So to all posters in this debate except MWB I say this - Darwin would have been horrified to see that both sides of the religious divide have evolved not one iota in over 2000 years in their inability to accept each others ideas with anything other than fear and hatred. To be honest you are probably BOTH wrong.
To MWB.....grow up, start thinking for yourself and if you must post such silly questions at least have the intelligence of an open mind in your answers. It makes for much better debate if both sides are armed.
I am not a Christian, never have been and likely never will be. As I said at the start, I only posted because the question was so stupid that it had to be a joke and I was hoping (all to no avail it seems) that MWB would add something worth hearing but it was not to be. At least everyone else seems to at least have enough conviction in their beliefs to have a go at me with a few balls.
So to all posters in this debate except MWB I say this - Darwin would have been horrified to see that both sides of the religious divide have evolved not one iota in over 2000 years in their inability to accept each others ideas with anything other than fear and hatred. To be honest you are probably BOTH wrong.
To MWB.....grow up, start thinking for yourself and if you must post such silly questions at least have the intelligence of an open mind in your answers. It makes for much better debate if both sides are armed.
For all of its 'perceived' benefits, belief in an imaginary overseer over reality must ultimately reap more harm than good. Reality holds within its absolute nature a requirement of conformity to it which can not be cheated and will not be denied. If nothing else, adopting a belief that control over ones fate it suspended somewhere out of reach above the clouds where it can only be appealed to with wishful pleading in a vain attempt to alter the direction, course and constitution of its whims, often at the mercy and behest of third-parties, has clearly proven within this very thread to be divisive between those who could and would quite possibly otherwise be of potential benefit to each other in resolving many of life's problems, especially where mutual cooperation has been compromised for the sake of unjustifiable, unreasonable and irreconcilable beliefs.
We are potentially each others, as well as our own, best friends. When one chooses to seek the favour of an imaginary dictator of reality whose conception of justice is to condemn those who refuse to deny the conviction of their own understanding of what is real, to everlasting torment, is it any wonder they have reduced themselves to groveling on their knees for a reality that refuses to conform to their irresponsible and perverse vision of what is real?
When and where ones integration with and ability to conform to reality has apparently failed, one should be turning toward and not away from the only place where any hope can reasonably be sought and found, in and through a greater understanding of and how best to cope and deal with reality.
We are potentially each others, as well as our own, best friends. When one chooses to seek the favour of an imaginary dictator of reality whose conception of justice is to condemn those who refuse to deny the conviction of their own understanding of what is real, to everlasting torment, is it any wonder they have reduced themselves to groveling on their knees for a reality that refuses to conform to their irresponsible and perverse vision of what is real?
When and where ones integration with and ability to conform to reality has apparently failed, one should be turning toward and not away from the only place where any hope can reasonably be sought and found, in and through a greater understanding of and how best to cope and deal with reality.
Mibs and his ilk have been banging th same drum from the dawn of the industrial revolution, the golden age of science in the 19th century, and the explosive, literally, achievements of the 20th.
Their reality seems to have no room for humility, which is one benefit of a prayer life that they deny themselves.
Their reality seems to have no room for humility, which is one benefit of a prayer life that they deny themselves.
Comes as no surprise that so many who have abandoned a belief in the efficacy of their own mind would take solace in attempts to bend the minds of others towards their own perverted version of reality. Such are the methods of those who are unable or unwilling to break a chain which began with one persons acceptance of a secondhand account of reality whose sole strength rests on lending mutual support to the propping up of each others delusions.
The problem inherent in ignoring the evidence of ones own perceptions in favour of what one might wish to be the truth is that in departing from the one path of objectivity which is capable of discerning the truth one commits oneself to slavery to ones own wishful thinking. Your mind which was your key to an improved understanding of how to live, the mind from which you have locked the door to reason, has been made your worst enemy at your own behest. Anyone who has not already fallen into this trap of their own design should pray that it never happens to them.
The problem inherent in ignoring the evidence of ones own perceptions in favour of what one might wish to be the truth is that in departing from the one path of objectivity which is capable of discerning the truth one commits oneself to slavery to ones own wishful thinking. Your mind which was your key to an improved understanding of how to live, the mind from which you have locked the door to reason, has been made your worst enemy at your own behest. Anyone who has not already fallen into this trap of their own design should pray that it never happens to them.
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