Is it religion that's the problem, or just people?

[ludwig]

Is religion directly responsible for this kind of barbarism, or will people always find reasons to want to kill each other?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/...d-south-asia-11930849

[Lonnie]

Lets be clear, in both the Bible/Torah and the Qur'an God/Allah ordersd killings, the difference is, in the Bible, God targets only specific people, eg Caananites and Hittites, whereas in the Qur'an, eg Sura47:4-7 says 'When you meet unbelievers, smite their necks., then when you have made wide slaughter among them tie fast the bonds'.

This means everyone who is nor a Muslim.

So while religion is not responsible for a lot of the carnage, it surely is for a hell of a lot more.

Anyway, I personally believe that people can only live in harmony for a short time, then 'Freedom of Will', a gift from God, becomes apparent, and we start killing each other.

[keyplus90]

The difference is that in the Bible God targets only specific people where in Quran (according to Lonnie) kill whenever you meet unbelievers....................

I wonder why Muslims are not acting upon these teachings of "killing unbelievers wherevr they see them". Or perhaps they know what context these couple of verses were given in. Just a thought.

[naomi24]

//I wonder why Muslims are not acting upon these teachings....//

Some of them are certainly planning to. Just another thought.

[boxtops]

Lonnie's quotation from the Quran is correct but in other writings, Muslims are exhorted to be tolerant of other people of the Book (i.e. Jews and Christians) - once again (and as we've said before) the people who incite death to other faiths are cherry-picking their texts. Muslims - it says - should only kill to defend their own faith.

Unfortunately people who convert from Islam are seen as heretics in some societies - in much the same way as someone who converts to Islam is seen as a lost cause by staunch Christians. I have seen this happen.

[boxtops]

Thanks keyplus ^^ my point entirely.

[beso]

Keyplus uses the same lame "context" excuse for the Quran as the Bible faithful use for their equally pathetic book.

I have asked many times for an explanation for these so called contexts but nobody has ever attempted an answer let alone something sensible. Why? Because there is no context that santisises murdering someone for having different beliefs.

[beso]

To defend their faith. Sure it is fine to murder anyone who speaks out against the dogma.

[naomi24]

Boxtops, the Koran is incredibly contradictory and it isn't only those who claim it promotes hostility that cherry pick. People make of it what they will, but unhappily the hatred it encourages is more harmful to the world than the peace it promotes. Beso is right. 'Context' is a poor excuse. The book says what it says and even though some choose to ignore the more unsavoury bits, no one can deny they exist however much they may want to.

Pixi, perhaps your fella has the sense not to take it too seriously. Sadly many don't.

[keyplus90]

////I have asked many times for an explanation for these so called contexts but nobody has ever attempted an answer let alone something sensible. Why? Because there is no context that santisises murdering someone for having different beliefs. ////

People have given context before but of course that was something you would not agree with so you decided to declare as never given or explained. And that is the reason I mentioned above that if these verses say what you believe they say then not even 1% Muslims are acting upon them. Or other possibility is that perhaps Muslims know that these (maximum 3 or 4) verses belong to a situation during the battle. And that is the context but I am 100% sure you will not believe.

Pixi – Perhaps your fella is from among the ones who understand the back ground of the verses. Naomi knows that Quran is incredibly contradictory so perhaps she can elaborate on that a bit more and give some contradictions. Or perhaps with her incredibly limited knowledge about Islam and Quran which depends only on few anti-Islamic websites, she can only believe what she knows.

[naomi24]

Ha ha!! Well it is incredibly contradictory, but you're a trier, Keyplus, I'll give you that. Shame the best you can do is to attempt to shoot the messengers. Anything to shut them up, eh? Ouch! Heaven forbid the truth might be revealed!

[joko]

i think one of the biggest problems with religion is the underlying emotions and neurosis it creates in peoples subconsciouses.

feelings of unexplained guilt, remorse, fear, helplessness, etc etc which we all have ingrained in us from an early age, yet now are just part of us and we dont even realise where they came from an why they never leave
it creates a permanent state of unease and self 'issues'...about ourselves and how we view others...jealously, envy, prejudice, etc etc

i believe it is this sort of underlying psyche that manifests itself in the hate and warmongering and general bad behaviour we see ...

[beso]

The simplistic context of "battle" belies a deeper hostile truth.

Muhummed (pbuh) and his followers went on a trail of conquest. Those who resisted his arrogant dogma were given a choice of conversion or death.

Defending the faith meant killing those who did not accept the deeply flawed Islamic concept of peace through universal compliance. To this day Islamists seek capital punishment for those who ignore their arbitrary laws against sex outside of marriage, adultery, homosexuality and blasphemy (however trivial) to name a few.

[Lonnie]

Whe, I quoted from the Qur'an, my point was that any Muslim that follows the Qur'an to the letter, should be 'waging war' on all non Muslims, this surely, is unlike any other religion.

And as for the Qur'an being contradictory, Yes, of course it is, (thats not to say other holy books aren't as well), just not in the same way.

Islam is a religion of peace, yes, of course it is, thats why we presently have all the killing world wide, in the name of Islam.

[keyplus90]

Naomi – I am waiting for the list of contradiction. Or perhaps you are waiting for someone expert on Islam. Have you phoned or email someone for help?

Beso – I am sorry but you have to read Islamic history. And that is the best advice I can you give after reading your last post.

Lonnie – You are right that few Muslims are killing worldwide IN THE NAME OF ISLAM. Perhaps you should look at the others too being killed all over the world for being Muslims for decades. Or perhaps you should read immediate history and see who came first “egg or chicken”.

[Lonnie]

Of cours, your right keyplus90, but not nearly on the same scale, consistantly, and I don't believe that they want to take over their host country.

I can't speak for other religions, but the Friday service in Shul, part of it always says, Always remember that you are guests in this country, obey the laws.

This is always a reminder that we are here because we have been ALLOWED to be here, by the Christian majority.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, oh dear, you do have a problem with educated, independent, women, don't you. Not to worry. Once again I'll ignore your silliness.

Why are you waiting for a list of contradictions when we've talked about this so many times before? You've been given umpteen examples - along with accounts of the plethora of errors the Koran contains and you are very well aware that I am far from a stranger to your literature, so please don't waste my time. If you've forgotten what we've discussed previously, I suggest you re-visit previous threads. There are plenty of them.

That aside, it seems to me that in your defence of the Koran you have created a bit of an unforeseen dilemma for yourself. Despite having been given proof to the contrary, you still insist that your book contains no contradictions and that it promotes peace. So tell me - why do other Muslims, based on their interpretation of the Koran, and with utter certainty of their reward in heaven, feel perfectly justified in killing thousands of innocent people? Now either you believe the Koran promotes peace and harmony in the world, or you believe what the mad mullahs and the young men and women who happily blow themselves and everyone around them to smithereens in the name of Allah believe. You can't have it both ways. You're all reading the same book, so if you continue to insist there are no contradictions, how it is that you and they read it so differently? Or do you? Will the real Keyplus please stand up!!

[naomi24]

//Perhaps you should look at the others too being killed all over the world for being Muslims for decades. Or perhaps you should read immediate history and see who came first “egg or chicken”. //

I didn't see this until after I posted. Could it be that the real Keyplus just stood up?

[keyplus90]

Exactly as expected.

[naomi24]

Yes indeed, Keyplus. Exactly as expected. Presented with rationality, you have no answer - as usual.