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Atheists on Jesus
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What are atheist beliefs about Jesus Christ?
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I couldn't agree with that Naomi
I don't think you could find a single instance of a society however primative that didn't evolve a religious belief!
Humans are hard wired to look for connections, the idea of cause and effect gets fixed in our brains at the age of about two and it's so strong that when we see an effect we can't explain we look for a cause.
If we can't find a cause we invent one.
So I would say that theism is actually the default state for humans.
I agree it shouldn't be, in a modern world where most people are quite higly educated, but it is
I don't think you could find a single instance of a society however primative that didn't evolve a religious belief!
Humans are hard wired to look for connections, the idea of cause and effect gets fixed in our brains at the age of about two and it's so strong that when we see an effect we can't explain we look for a cause.
If we can't find a cause we invent one.
So I would say that theism is actually the default state for humans.
I agree it shouldn't be, in a modern world where most people are quite higly educated, but it is
Dave, that's the point exactly. Because people say things are supernatural, we've accepted that as the norm and invented a word to describe those who don't. No one is born believing in God, and therefore non-belief is the default position for a human being so a word to describe that is entirely unnecessary.
Sound points made so far: that all atheists don't think alike, apart fom their disbelief in gods; that Jesus may or may not have existed as an ordinary nomadic rabbi; that the Jesus story is based on the pagan god-man story which predated it by centuries.
If you start from scratch, the idea of Jesus was introduced by Paul in his epistles in about AD55, with nothing at all before that. There is nothing about him in any Jewish or Roman records of his supposed time. The gospels were written much later by unknown people who weren't there. There is not a single ear- or eye-witness report of anything Jesus is supposed to have said or done.
So Jesus has the same historical status as Juno, Apollo, Jupiter or Sherlock Holmes i.e none at all.
If you start from scratch, the idea of Jesus was introduced by Paul in his epistles in about AD55, with nothing at all before that. There is nothing about him in any Jewish or Roman records of his supposed time. The gospels were written much later by unknown people who weren't there. There is not a single ear- or eye-witness report of anything Jesus is supposed to have said or done.
So Jesus has the same historical status as Juno, Apollo, Jupiter or Sherlock Holmes i.e none at all.
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No I think indoctrination is about getting other people to focus their religious feelings in the way that you want them to.
I think religious feelings are a natural by-product of the way our intelligence works.
Not only have we the evidence of countless civilisations who have independantly invented religions but there is separated twin evidence showing the tendency for religiousity
I think religious feelings are a natural by-product of the way our intelligence works.
Not only have we the evidence of countless civilisations who have independantly invented religions but there is separated twin evidence showing the tendency for religiousity
i think i agree with jake.
humans have a universal capacity to classify and encode their experiences symbolically, and then communicate symbolically encoded experiences socially. this is the evolution of humans and of culture, which includes supernatural symbolism and spiritual beliefs.
1. a new pattern of behavior is invented, or an existing one is modified.
2. the innovator transmits this pattern to another.
3. the form of the pattern is consistent within and across performers, perhaps even in terms of recognizable stylistic features.
4. the one who acquires the pattern retains the ability to perform it long after having acquired it.
5. the pattern spreads across social units in a population. these social units may be families, clans, troops, or bands.
6. the pattern endures across generations
it is interesting that the increase in religion within human evolution and development has coincided with the reduction in brain size.
humans have a universal capacity to classify and encode their experiences symbolically, and then communicate symbolically encoded experiences socially. this is the evolution of humans and of culture, which includes supernatural symbolism and spiritual beliefs.
1. a new pattern of behavior is invented, or an existing one is modified.
2. the innovator transmits this pattern to another.
3. the form of the pattern is consistent within and across performers, perhaps even in terms of recognizable stylistic features.
4. the one who acquires the pattern retains the ability to perform it long after having acquired it.
5. the pattern spreads across social units in a population. these social units may be families, clans, troops, or bands.
6. the pattern endures across generations
it is interesting that the increase in religion within human evolution and development has coincided with the reduction in brain size.
@ Ankou - In your post, you state " it is interesting that the increase in religion within human evolution and development has coincided with the reduction in brain size."
Did you mean to say that? It is my understanding that brain size has increased with evolution, regardless of the religiousness or otherwise :)
The other points you made - are you talking about memes?
@ Jake - I think that as newborns and in early years, the default state of religiousity within an individual is atheist. But, as a species, we are hardwired for a narrative view of the universe, and we gain that narrative view through mimicry and adoption of a worldview. Most of that information inevitably will come from the parents.
Brainwashing is perhaps a perjorative term ,but, as a species, it is undeniable that much of those early beliefs and experiences occur through mimicry and imprinting.
Various studies i have read, and indeed my own experience, have emphasized the point that for many people, religiousness was passed on from the parent - and proves remarkably resistant to critical and sceptical analysis.
Did you mean to say that? It is my understanding that brain size has increased with evolution, regardless of the religiousness or otherwise :)
The other points you made - are you talking about memes?
@ Jake - I think that as newborns and in early years, the default state of religiousity within an individual is atheist. But, as a species, we are hardwired for a narrative view of the universe, and we gain that narrative view through mimicry and adoption of a worldview. Most of that information inevitably will come from the parents.
Brainwashing is perhaps a perjorative term ,but, as a species, it is undeniable that much of those early beliefs and experiences occur through mimicry and imprinting.
Various studies i have read, and indeed my own experience, have emphasized the point that for many people, religiousness was passed on from the parent - and proves remarkably resistant to critical and sceptical analysis.
Jake-the-peg - “Birdie's assertion that there is no contemporary reference to Jesus is contentious... Because there are very few contemporary records - try and find any contemporary records for anyone of that time and you'd be forced to conclude that there was almost nobody there.”
Your assertion is demonstrably incorrect. There are literally thousands of contemporary records recorded by chroniclers at the time of Jesus which completely fail to mention him at all. They do mention every other major event. Noted writers such as:
Philo of Alexandria, a Jewish philosopher who lived from about 20 BC to 50 AD - he was, living in or Jerusalem at the time of Jesus' death and yet none of his works contain any mention of Jesus or Christianity;
Justus of Tiberius, a native of Galilee who wrote a history around 80 BC covering the time Jesus supposedly lived, does not mention him;
The Roman writer Seneca the Younger, who was born around 3 BC and lived into the 60s AD, wrote extensively about ethics but says nothing about Jesus or his teachings;
Pliny the Elder, born around 20 AD, took a special interest in writing about science and natural phenomena, but his thirty-seven-volume Natural History says nothing about an earthquake or a strange darkness around the supposed time of Jesus' death, although he would have been alive at the time it happened. In fact, not a single contemporary record exists of the darkness, and there was a widespread failure to note the earthquake, much less the appearance of the resurrected saints.
To suggest that no one was recording contemporary events in Jesus's lifetime is spurious.
Your assertion is demonstrably incorrect. There are literally thousands of contemporary records recorded by chroniclers at the time of Jesus which completely fail to mention him at all. They do mention every other major event. Noted writers such as:
Philo of Alexandria, a Jewish philosopher who lived from about 20 BC to 50 AD - he was, living in or Jerusalem at the time of Jesus' death and yet none of his works contain any mention of Jesus or Christianity;
Justus of Tiberius, a native of Galilee who wrote a history around 80 BC covering the time Jesus supposedly lived, does not mention him;
The Roman writer Seneca the Younger, who was born around 3 BC and lived into the 60s AD, wrote extensively about ethics but says nothing about Jesus or his teachings;
Pliny the Elder, born around 20 AD, took a special interest in writing about science and natural phenomena, but his thirty-seven-volume Natural History says nothing about an earthquake or a strange darkness around the supposed time of Jesus' death, although he would have been alive at the time it happened. In fact, not a single contemporary record exists of the darkness, and there was a widespread failure to note the earthquake, much less the appearance of the resurrected saints.
To suggest that no one was recording contemporary events in Jesus's lifetime is spurious.
This thread has steadily moved from the existence of Jesus to a general debate about why religions exist.
I agree with several posters who have suggested that the (uneducated) human mind is predisposed to the concept of an all powerful deity (or deities).
However, once you introduce education, and specifically a scientific education, you find that belief in deities decreases dramatically. The incidence of religious belief seems to be inversely proportionate to the amount of scientific education that an individual receives. Professors are mostly aesthetics or agnostics. There are a few exceptions to this of course - which you'd expect if you're a statistician (another scientific discipline).
I agree with several posters who have suggested that the (uneducated) human mind is predisposed to the concept of an all powerful deity (or deities).
However, once you introduce education, and specifically a scientific education, you find that belief in deities decreases dramatically. The incidence of religious belief seems to be inversely proportionate to the amount of scientific education that an individual receives. Professors are mostly aesthetics or agnostics. There are a few exceptions to this of course - which you'd expect if you're a statistician (another scientific discipline).
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