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Why was God demoted?
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Here's a question for those of you who believe in the Judaeo/Christian 'God'. There's a bit of a preamble:
Until nearly 3000 years ago the Jews worshipped several gods depending on where in Israel they lived. The main gods of northern Israel were Baal and El. The god of southern Israel was YHWH (modified to Yahweh to make it pronounceable, and later to Jehovah). When the Jews decided to become monotheistic they chose YHWH to be their sole god, now called 'God'. This is the basis of the 1st commandment ('Thou shalt have no other gods but me'). Christians later adopted this god too, though not monothestically.
(That, briefly, is history as far as we can ascertain it.)
It was claimed that 'God' had created the whole of the universe and all life on earth.
(That is religious belief.)
The problem is that the universe emerged about 12,000 million years ago, the earth about 4,700 million years ago and life about 3,500 million years ago. (That is scientific fact as far as we can ascertain it.) So to my multiple question:
How come that the chap who performed such mind-boggling miracles thousands of millions of years ago, making him a Supreme Being, ended up as an obscure minor deity in a small part of a small country with very few people recognising him until the Jews decided to promote him? Why was he demoted from Supreme Being and who demoted him?
Rational discussion please. No sermons, Theland!
Until nearly 3000 years ago the Jews worshipped several gods depending on where in Israel they lived. The main gods of northern Israel were Baal and El. The god of southern Israel was YHWH (modified to Yahweh to make it pronounceable, and later to Jehovah). When the Jews decided to become monotheistic they chose YHWH to be their sole god, now called 'God'. This is the basis of the 1st commandment ('Thou shalt have no other gods but me'). Christians later adopted this god too, though not monothestically.
(That, briefly, is history as far as we can ascertain it.)
It was claimed that 'God' had created the whole of the universe and all life on earth.
(That is religious belief.)
The problem is that the universe emerged about 12,000 million years ago, the earth about 4,700 million years ago and life about 3,500 million years ago. (That is scientific fact as far as we can ascertain it.) So to my multiple question:
How come that the chap who performed such mind-boggling miracles thousands of millions of years ago, making him a Supreme Being, ended up as an obscure minor deity in a small part of a small country with very few people recognising him until the Jews decided to promote him? Why was he demoted from Supreme Being and who demoted him?
Rational discussion please. No sermons, Theland!
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Give me strength! It's not a 'supposedly' failed prophecy, Theland, it's a 'conspicuously and comprehensively failed prophecy' by dint of it NOT HAVING HAPPENED. Sorry to use capitals, but this is pretty elementary stuff! Do you honestly not see this? A three year old could understand the level of logic required here. It's really not complicated!
Seriously, you don't honestly believe that there's a credible way to get around the facts of the things prophesied *not actually occuring*, do you?
I await your 'explanation' with interest, Mr Occum.
Seriously, you don't honestly believe that there's a credible way to get around the facts of the things prophesied *not actually occuring*, do you?
I await your 'explanation' with interest, Mr Occum.
Waldo..I expect the "explanation" will have more twists and turns in it than Brands Hatch and be equally as tortuous as the previous explanations.J.P.Holding, (the source of Thelands answers) has been discredited many times on the net.When questioned why the gospel writers missed out key elements that the other gospel writers choose to include his serious reply was that they ran out of ink...
With this kind of mentality it would appear to be a losing battle.
Send for those nice men in white coats....
With this kind of mentality it would appear to be a losing battle.
Send for those nice men in white coats....
Waldo - Wizard didn't accept my explanation for one of the Bible passages, because of J.P. Holding, but neglected to acknowledge that holding was quoting from "The Students Guide To The Talmud," which should, I hope, be above suspicion.
There is a great distance in time and culture between us and the Bible writers, and to understand the Bible, which after all is a Jewish book, it is not unreasonable to adopt their mindset when studying the scriptures.
Wizard has dismissed this, and so I am left trying to explain away the culural and linguistic practices of the Hebrews and first century Jews, to twenty first century man. It can't be done.
There is a great distance in time and culture between us and the Bible writers, and to understand the Bible, which after all is a Jewish book, it is not unreasonable to adopt their mindset when studying the scriptures.
Wizard has dismissed this, and so I am left trying to explain away the culural and linguistic practices of the Hebrews and first century Jews, to twenty first century man. It can't be done.
Well, ignore him. I am honestly intrigued to know how the prohesy could possibly be fulfilled since any sane person must accept that Nebbuchadnezzar did not lay Egypt to waste for 40 years (and nor did anyone else).
I just hope you're not going to make some claim it's a predication of something that hasn't happened yet.
I just hope you're not going to make some claim it's a predication of something that hasn't happened yet.
Waldo - Relating to Wizards question regarding Egypts destruction ...
The passage relating to Egypts judgement and the context including the verses mentioned, takes up the portion of Ezekiel 29:1 - 32:32.
It becomes very clear that Nebuchadnezzar was Gods instrument of judgement upon Egypt.
Pharaoh Hophra (Jer 44:30) had come to the aid of Jerusalem when Nebuchadnezzar had laid siege to it.
Thereupon, Nebuchadnezzar withdrew only to come again in 588bc and finally Jerusalem collapsed in 586bc.
This prophecy was made against Egypt when jerusalem had been under siege for a year in 587bc.
The "dragon" is used as a figure of Pharaoh and has reference to the crocodiles that were common on the Nile. The dragon and fish are seen as being cast on to the land where they perish since they are water creatures.
This pictures the destruction of Pharaoh and his people, (Ezekiel 29:17)
(continued) .....
The passage relating to Egypts judgement and the context including the verses mentioned, takes up the portion of Ezekiel 29:1 - 32:32.
It becomes very clear that Nebuchadnezzar was Gods instrument of judgement upon Egypt.
Pharaoh Hophra (Jer 44:30) had come to the aid of Jerusalem when Nebuchadnezzar had laid siege to it.
Thereupon, Nebuchadnezzar withdrew only to come again in 588bc and finally Jerusalem collapsed in 586bc.
This prophecy was made against Egypt when jerusalem had been under siege for a year in 587bc.
The "dragon" is used as a figure of Pharaoh and has reference to the crocodiles that were common on the Nile. The dragon and fish are seen as being cast on to the land where they perish since they are water creatures.
This pictures the destruction of Pharaoh and his people, (Ezekiel 29:17)
(continued) .....
(continued) .....
Verses 8-12 in chapter 29 (in verse 8) mentions a "sword" which is reference to the Chaldeans (see verse 8, 32:11,12 Jeremiah 46:13 and the following). The main reason for Paraohs destruction was his proud and arrogant spirit that said the Nile and the glory of Egypt was his doing.
To cause him and his people and the surrounding nations to see that "Lord God is Lord," the land was decimated from north to south (Migdol to Syrene) of both man and beast. The survivors were scattered among the nations.
"Forty years" was the period of Chaldean supremacy, anticipating verse 13.
Because of the lenient policy of Persia in 539bc, many of the captives were allowed to go home.
(continued) .....
Verses 8-12 in chapter 29 (in verse 8) mentions a "sword" which is reference to the Chaldeans (see verse 8, 32:11,12 Jeremiah 46:13 and the following). The main reason for Paraohs destruction was his proud and arrogant spirit that said the Nile and the glory of Egypt was his doing.
To cause him and his people and the surrounding nations to see that "Lord God is Lord," the land was decimated from north to south (Migdol to Syrene) of both man and beast. The survivors were scattered among the nations.
"Forty years" was the period of Chaldean supremacy, anticipating verse 13.
Because of the lenient policy of Persia in 539bc, many of the captives were allowed to go home.
(continued) .....
(continued) ....
We read in 29:13 - 16 such phrases as "....at the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians ..... and bring them again ..... into the land of their habitation ..... it shall be the basest of kingdoms ... "
Even though Egypt had been great and powerful, after their return, they never again became a powerful nation. History has borne this out.
We read in 29:13 - 16 such phrases as "....at the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians ..... and bring them again ..... into the land of their habitation ..... it shall be the basest of kingdoms ... "
Even though Egypt had been great and powerful, after their return, they never again became a powerful nation. History has borne this out.
Theland, may I ask if you believe the answer you've given above to be a good one - from your perspective, I mean? Does it seem coherant. Does it strike you as a true explanation for the prophesy under discussion?
I'm honestly interested before I post my explanation of how and where I think it fails.
I'm honestly interested before I post my explanation of how and where I think it fails.
Okay, so you think it's come true.
I think your answer is frankly awful, and I can't believe you seriously think it is sufficient.
Firstly, it tends to use the Bible to support itself, which is a bit like claiming 'Voldemort has really returned from the dead because Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone says so in Chapter 23'! A large portion of your 'proof' simply re-iterates the detail of the prophesy, which would be fine if you then showed how this related to some evidence, but you don't.
First of all, though this is a minor nitpicky point, you refer to Pharaoh Hopra. 'Hopra' is a name that only appears in the Bible (in Jeremiah 44:30). There is no reference to any such person in any Egyptian record. The correct name of the Pharaoh as it appears in historical record is Ahmose II (or Amasis) 570 - 526, if we accept that Jeremiah means that the pharaoh under discussion is actually contemporary with Nebuchadrezzar.
You seem to accept that Nebuchadnezzar is the person referred to in the text (and not some future Persian leader who will attack Egypt at some point in the future and destroy those people for a transgression of which they are wholly innocent, as I have seen in some other apologetic sites). Thus, we can accept that for the prophesy to have come true, Nebby will lay Egypt to waste for a period of 40 years.
This might also be a pertinent point to mention that Nebby (and Cambyses, who comes into play in a bit) were Pagans and certainly not believers in Yahweh; far from it - they'd just smacked down Yahweh and his people big time. Nebby would have been a worshipper of Marduk.
(TBC)
I think your answer is frankly awful, and I can't believe you seriously think it is sufficient.
Firstly, it tends to use the Bible to support itself, which is a bit like claiming 'Voldemort has really returned from the dead because Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone says so in Chapter 23'! A large portion of your 'proof' simply re-iterates the detail of the prophesy, which would be fine if you then showed how this related to some evidence, but you don't.
First of all, though this is a minor nitpicky point, you refer to Pharaoh Hopra. 'Hopra' is a name that only appears in the Bible (in Jeremiah 44:30). There is no reference to any such person in any Egyptian record. The correct name of the Pharaoh as it appears in historical record is Ahmose II (or Amasis) 570 - 526, if we accept that Jeremiah means that the pharaoh under discussion is actually contemporary with Nebuchadrezzar.
You seem to accept that Nebuchadnezzar is the person referred to in the text (and not some future Persian leader who will attack Egypt at some point in the future and destroy those people for a transgression of which they are wholly innocent, as I have seen in some other apologetic sites). Thus, we can accept that for the prophesy to have come true, Nebby will lay Egypt to waste for a period of 40 years.
This might also be a pertinent point to mention that Nebby (and Cambyses, who comes into play in a bit) were Pagans and certainly not believers in Yahweh; far from it - they'd just smacked down Yahweh and his people big time. Nebby would have been a worshipper of Marduk.
(TBC)
(ctd)
However, the single biggest problem with your response is that it didn't happen. Ahmose certainly did repulse an attack by our chum Nebby, but Egypt most certainly did not fall; it is a matter of easily checked historical record. Nor was it rendered barren for 40 years. The fact that in 525 Egypt was taken as a prize by Cambyses (another Pagan, lest we forget, a devotee of Ahura Mazda, the Persian fire god and one of the origins of dualistic elements appropriated by a certain other religion later on (his opposite number was Ahriman, also known as Shaitan - or, as he became known, Satan...)) should be sufficient to prove it was far from barren by mentioning that Cambyses based himself in Egypt thereafter.
Perhaps even more damning than all of that, is the issue of the Fatimids, under whom Egypt was the centre of an empire that included Sicily, Palestine, Syria, North Africa and a few other bits. Hardly 'the basest of kingdoms' your prophesy suggests...
However, the single biggest problem with your response is that it didn't happen. Ahmose certainly did repulse an attack by our chum Nebby, but Egypt most certainly did not fall; it is a matter of easily checked historical record. Nor was it rendered barren for 40 years. The fact that in 525 Egypt was taken as a prize by Cambyses (another Pagan, lest we forget, a devotee of Ahura Mazda, the Persian fire god and one of the origins of dualistic elements appropriated by a certain other religion later on (his opposite number was Ahriman, also known as Shaitan - or, as he became known, Satan...)) should be sufficient to prove it was far from barren by mentioning that Cambyses based himself in Egypt thereafter.
Perhaps even more damning than all of that, is the issue of the Fatimids, under whom Egypt was the centre of an empire that included Sicily, Palestine, Syria, North Africa and a few other bits. Hardly 'the basest of kingdoms' your prophesy suggests...
No, Theland, you haven't answered my question or even addressed it. Just to remind you: how come that a 'God' who is supposed to have created the universe thousands of millions of years ago - a matter which should be of fundamental interest to every living thing in the universe - then disappeared into obscurity to be resurrected as a purely Jewish god a few thousand years ago, of no interest to the rest of the world until the Christians adopted him?
And, now that Lent is two days old, have you taken up my idea? I am perfectly serious in genuinely wanting you to feel the thrill and deep satisfaction of being able to think for yourself instead of relying on unknown ancient writers. Please try it.
And, now that Lent is two days old, have you taken up my idea? I am perfectly serious in genuinely wanting you to feel the thrill and deep satisfaction of being able to think for yourself instead of relying on unknown ancient writers. Please try it.
Waldo - Sorry for the delay.
I admire your scholarship on this subject, and appreciate the fact that you have thoroughly researched your comments to my answer.
I am now puzzled by the fact that I have two different answers that both claim to accurately describe these historical events.
I am not familiar with any detail from this period of history, and have to rely on the expertise of others to enlighten me, and that includes you.
So, the Bible makes this prophecy, one source says, yes, it happened, and another source says, no, it didn't.
I can only send your comments to the first source, and hopefully await their reply,
Now, that's a fair bit of time consuming typing, but I will endeavour to do just that.
In the meantime, I respect your views, and find myself, for the moment, quite embarrassed by what I have learned, and hoping that there will be a satisfactory explanation.
I shall, for the time being at least, continue munching away on this rather large slice of humble pie.
I admire your scholarship on this subject, and appreciate the fact that you have thoroughly researched your comments to my answer.
I am now puzzled by the fact that I have two different answers that both claim to accurately describe these historical events.
I am not familiar with any detail from this period of history, and have to rely on the expertise of others to enlighten me, and that includes you.
So, the Bible makes this prophecy, one source says, yes, it happened, and another source says, no, it didn't.
I can only send your comments to the first source, and hopefully await their reply,
Now, that's a fair bit of time consuming typing, but I will endeavour to do just that.
In the meantime, I respect your views, and find myself, for the moment, quite embarrassed by what I have learned, and hoping that there will be a satisfactory explanation.
I shall, for the time being at least, continue munching away on this rather large slice of humble pie.
Beyond the fact that the Bible makes the prophesy, what more do you hope to prove by referring back to it again?
You end up in the equivalent of swearing blind that Kings Cross Station has a platform 9 3/4 by virtue of the fact that it says so in the Harry Potter books again.
In the Harry Potter analogy, you clearly can't take what the Harry Potter books say as evidence for platform 9 3/4. An appropriate way to check it would be to look at a book about London Railway Stations. Isn't this a sensible and fair way to attempt to discover the actualitee?
Similarly, you need to go to historical records unconnected with the Bible and Biblical scholarship to see if what they're telling you is true.
You end up in the equivalent of swearing blind that Kings Cross Station has a platform 9 3/4 by virtue of the fact that it says so in the Harry Potter books again.
In the Harry Potter analogy, you clearly can't take what the Harry Potter books say as evidence for platform 9 3/4. An appropriate way to check it would be to look at a book about London Railway Stations. Isn't this a sensible and fair way to attempt to discover the actualitee?
Similarly, you need to go to historical records unconnected with the Bible and Biblical scholarship to see if what they're telling you is true.
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