Sport2 mins ago
Why was God demoted?
63 Answers
Here's a question for those of you who believe in the Judaeo/Christian 'God'. There's a bit of a preamble:
Until nearly 3000 years ago the Jews worshipped several gods depending on where in Israel they lived. The main gods of northern Israel were Baal and El. The god of southern Israel was YHWH (modified to Yahweh to make it pronounceable, and later to Jehovah). When the Jews decided to become monotheistic they chose YHWH to be their sole god, now called 'God'. This is the basis of the 1st commandment ('Thou shalt have no other gods but me'). Christians later adopted this god too, though not monothestically.
(That, briefly, is history as far as we can ascertain it.)
It was claimed that 'God' had created the whole of the universe and all life on earth.
(That is religious belief.)
The problem is that the universe emerged about 12,000 million years ago, the earth about 4,700 million years ago and life about 3,500 million years ago. (That is scientific fact as far as we can ascertain it.) So to my multiple question:
How come that the chap who performed such mind-boggling miracles thousands of millions of years ago, making him a Supreme Being, ended up as an obscure minor deity in a small part of a small country with very few people recognising him until the Jews decided to promote him? Why was he demoted from Supreme Being and who demoted him?
Rational discussion please. No sermons, Theland!
Until nearly 3000 years ago the Jews worshipped several gods depending on where in Israel they lived. The main gods of northern Israel were Baal and El. The god of southern Israel was YHWH (modified to Yahweh to make it pronounceable, and later to Jehovah). When the Jews decided to become monotheistic they chose YHWH to be their sole god, now called 'God'. This is the basis of the 1st commandment ('Thou shalt have no other gods but me'). Christians later adopted this god too, though not monothestically.
(That, briefly, is history as far as we can ascertain it.)
It was claimed that 'God' had created the whole of the universe and all life on earth.
(That is religious belief.)
The problem is that the universe emerged about 12,000 million years ago, the earth about 4,700 million years ago and life about 3,500 million years ago. (That is scientific fact as far as we can ascertain it.) So to my multiple question:
How come that the chap who performed such mind-boggling miracles thousands of millions of years ago, making him a Supreme Being, ended up as an obscure minor deity in a small part of a small country with very few people recognising him until the Jews decided to promote him? Why was he demoted from Supreme Being and who demoted him?
Rational discussion please. No sermons, Theland!
Answers
Best Answer
No best answer has yet been selected by chakka35. Once a best answer has been selected, it will be shown here.
For more on marking an answer as the "Best Answer", please visit our FAQ.
chakka35 - I reiterate my initial apology for the thread-creep, however there is a point to which I must respond...
dawkins - my allegation of "fatuous" was in response to your implication that I somehow equated Science with Religion, whereas I was actually making the case that they both exist within the spectrum of Belief Systems.
I shall use an analogy (the fundamental method of scientific explanation) to explain the difference �
Dogs are mammals;
Dolphins are mammals;
Dolphins are not dogs.
Religion is a Belief System;
Science is a Belief System;
Science is not Religion.
Here is a little light reading for you (which also gives you a namecheck)...
Science as a Belief System
dawkins - my allegation of "fatuous" was in response to your implication that I somehow equated Science with Religion, whereas I was actually making the case that they both exist within the spectrum of Belief Systems.
I shall use an analogy (the fundamental method of scientific explanation) to explain the difference �
Dogs are mammals;
Dolphins are mammals;
Dolphins are not dogs.
Religion is a Belief System;
Science is a Belief System;
Science is not Religion.
Here is a little light reading for you (which also gives you a namecheck)...
Science as a Belief System
chakka35 - (and Wizard69) - The probable answer to the question on John 7:38 is Isaiah 58:11 and also Jeremiah 17:13.
The answers to the question on Luke 24:46 and Matt 27:9-10 are best answered, (this also includes the previous answer from John 7:38 in the following way.
It was not unusual in biblical time to quote from more than one prophet at a time, conjoining their meanings, but citing only one of them as the originator.
(continued)
The answers to the question on Luke 24:46 and Matt 27:9-10 are best answered, (this also includes the previous answer from John 7:38 in the following way.
It was not unusual in biblical time to quote from more than one prophet at a time, conjoining their meanings, but citing only one of them as the originator.
(continued)
(continued)
J.P. Holding reports that the rabbis, "adapted as one of their methods, that of calling different personages by one and the same name if they found them akin in any feature of their characters or activities or if they found a similarity between any of their actions." (Z.H. Chages in, "The Student Guide To The Talmud." 172)
(continued)
J.P. Holding reports that the rabbis, "adapted as one of their methods, that of calling different personages by one and the same name if they found them akin in any feature of their characters or activities or if they found a similarity between any of their actions." (Z.H. Chages in, "The Student Guide To The Talmud." 172)
(continued)
(continued)
There are examples of as many as three people being cited as one person because of such similarities.
This rabbinical practice was justified by biblical example, (eg 2Chron 36:21 is taken from Lev 26:34-35 and Jer 25:12 yet only Jeremiah is cited), and used later by Jewish writers of the New Teatament.
(continued)
There are examples of as many as three people being cited as one person because of such similarities.
This rabbinical practice was justified by biblical example, (eg 2Chron 36:21 is taken from Lev 26:34-35 and Jer 25:12 yet only Jeremiah is cited), and used later by Jewish writers of the New Teatament.
(continued)
(continued)
In the New Testament, we have Matt 27:3-10 (the contextual passage containing 9-10).
There are some obvious parallels in Jeremiah (eg 18:2-6 19:1-13 32:6-15) as well as Zech 11:12-13.
Thus, the reference to Jeremiah is not meant to cite one specific quote from that prophet, but instead to reference his writings as a whole.
There is a similar situation with Luke 24:46.
Here, Christ is not citing any particular prophet, but specifically states that the prophecies come from, "everything written about me in the Law of Moses, the prophets and the psalms. (v44)
Thus He is referencing the witness of the entire Old Testament, (which would include specific prophecies, typologies etc).
In the New Testament, we have Matt 27:3-10 (the contextual passage containing 9-10).
There are some obvious parallels in Jeremiah (eg 18:2-6 19:1-13 32:6-15) as well as Zech 11:12-13.
Thus, the reference to Jeremiah is not meant to cite one specific quote from that prophet, but instead to reference his writings as a whole.
There is a similar situation with Luke 24:46.
Here, Christ is not citing any particular prophet, but specifically states that the prophecies come from, "everything written about me in the Law of Moses, the prophets and the psalms. (v44)
Thus He is referencing the witness of the entire Old Testament, (which would include specific prophecies, typologies etc).
To get back to the original point, then, yes, I believe the biblical accounts and what the scripture tell me about God. But why should I trust the Bible?
There are many reasons, but let's just look at one. Prophecies.
The Bible is accurate in its prophecies regarding the Jews, their exiles and captivities, restoration to the land and finally their scattering amongst the nations. Then it goes on to say that despite having no homeland, they would remain a nation, and finally would be restored to the land. This happened in 1948!
The prophecies concerning their present day enemies, and the coalitions that are forming against them in the present day, are all foretold.
There are many reasons, but let's just look at one. Prophecies.
The Bible is accurate in its prophecies regarding the Jews, their exiles and captivities, restoration to the land and finally their scattering amongst the nations. Then it goes on to say that despite having no homeland, they would remain a nation, and finally would be restored to the land. This happened in 1948!
The prophecies concerning their present day enemies, and the coalitions that are forming against them in the present day, are all foretold.
continued ....
So, if the Bible is accurate on these matters, I trust it when it tells me that God created ....
And so I disagree with you when you say that I don't know where the universe came from.
In our experience of cause and effect, we must, even scientifically, believe that the universe had a cause. That cause is God. The atheists cannot bring themselves to believe this, and are satisfied to explain the universe, from a few minutes onwards after the Big Bang. But his is not good enough. Something from nothing? That takes more faith than I have I'm afraid.
Brfore you dismiss my belief in bible prophecy, try exploring it yourself. There are many web sites devoted to the subject. Yes, Christian web sites and therefore biased, but at least you can see what is written in the Bible, and then compare it to how events are unfolding.
Thank you for coming back to this thread even after several days.
So, if the Bible is accurate on these matters, I trust it when it tells me that God created ....
And so I disagree with you when you say that I don't know where the universe came from.
In our experience of cause and effect, we must, even scientifically, believe that the universe had a cause. That cause is God. The atheists cannot bring themselves to believe this, and are satisfied to explain the universe, from a few minutes onwards after the Big Bang. But his is not good enough. Something from nothing? That takes more faith than I have I'm afraid.
Brfore you dismiss my belief in bible prophecy, try exploring it yourself. There are many web sites devoted to the subject. Yes, Christian web sites and therefore biased, but at least you can see what is written in the Bible, and then compare it to how events are unfolding.
Thank you for coming back to this thread even after several days.
And what about all the prophesies which have failed to come true, Theland?
Ezekiel 29:10-30:11, in which the prophet tells that Nebuchadrezzar will conquer Egypt and lay it to waste and render it uninhabitable for 40 years, is rather conspiciously knackered by the fact that it didn't happen and Nebuchadrezzar died without fulfilling it.
How do you pick and choose which ones it's okay to vest your faith in, and those which can be conveniently ignored?
It's confirmation bias of the absolute worst kind (even if we are generous enough to ignore the fact that most of these so-called prophesies are so vague that a it would be more remarkable if there wasn't countless ways in which they could be 'fulfilled').
Ezekiel 29:10-30:11, in which the prophet tells that Nebuchadrezzar will conquer Egypt and lay it to waste and render it uninhabitable for 40 years, is rather conspiciously knackered by the fact that it didn't happen and Nebuchadrezzar died without fulfilling it.
How do you pick and choose which ones it's okay to vest your faith in, and those which can be conveniently ignored?
It's confirmation bias of the absolute worst kind (even if we are generous enough to ignore the fact that most of these so-called prophesies are so vague that a it would be more remarkable if there wasn't countless ways in which they could be 'fulfilled').
Actually Kempie, you did equate science with religion several times: You said that science and religion were two sides of the same coin; You went on to say that both science and religion require a leap of faith and that my belief in dark matter (a bit presumptuous of you) was somehow equivalent to belief in the supernatural. So actually you were arguing that science is a faith and a belief. I argued that dark matter is postulated not as a leap of faith but as a potential explanation of observational evidence of the radial velocities of stars orbiting the periphery of galaxies. Gravity is a very important component in the argument for dark matter. It could be that relativity breaks down at such large scales and dark matter is unnecessary to explain the observations or it could be that dark matter is a real phenomenon explaining the increase in gravitational pull. I don't have 'faith' in either position i'll wait for the evidence. Your linked article tends to agree with me that science is evidence based and so, unlike religion, does not require a leap of faith. In fact, i'm unsure what point you are trying to get across, you may have to help me out.
Theland you are so out in all of your assumptions that I don't know where to begin. You offer a logical fallacy, that any gap in scientific knowledge is evidence for god! Your evidence for this: the bible, which argues that 4500 years ago during a great flood left the world with a population of 8, a man gathered up around 20 million animals and put them on a boat.
Theland you are so out in all of your assumptions that I don't know where to begin. You offer a logical fallacy, that any gap in scientific knowledge is evidence for god! Your evidence for this: the bible, which argues that 4500 years ago during a great flood left the world with a population of 8, a man gathered up around 20 million animals and put them on a boat.
Theland I don�t know that atheists talk of the Big Bang and then leave it at that; it explains nothing. As I said last time, I don�t know how the universe came about; neither does any scientist nor any religionist, including you. You have merely chosen to believe the Bible because it suits you (in which case you presumably believe that the earth existed at least three days before the rest of the universe and all the other absurdities in Genesis). That is your privilege, but you must remember that there are dozens of different creation myths across the world�s religions, so it�s a matter of choice for the individual � including the rejection of all of them.
You seem totally obsessed by the Bible, to the extent that you rarely seem to think for yourself, preferring the views of unknown people writing thousands of years ago. Don�t you occasionally feel a little humiliated by that reliance on ancient strangers?
Now I have a practical suggestion for you. Lent starts next week. Why don�t you give up the Bible for Lent? No, I�m serious. When you wake up each morning and start to think about something and find yourself asking �What does the Bible say about this?� replace that thought with �What do I think about this?�. It�ll be difficult at first without your accustomed prop, but you�ll get better at it as each day passes. With a bit of luck, by the end of the 40 days you might have kicked the Bible drug altogether and be rejoicing in a splendidly independent mind. It�s a wonderful feeling, I promise you. Try it. Go on.
You seem totally obsessed by the Bible, to the extent that you rarely seem to think for yourself, preferring the views of unknown people writing thousands of years ago. Don�t you occasionally feel a little humiliated by that reliance on ancient strangers?
Now I have a practical suggestion for you. Lent starts next week. Why don�t you give up the Bible for Lent? No, I�m serious. When you wake up each morning and start to think about something and find yourself asking �What does the Bible say about this?� replace that thought with �What do I think about this?�. It�ll be difficult at first without your accustomed prop, but you�ll get better at it as each day passes. With a bit of luck, by the end of the 40 days you might have kicked the Bible drug altogether and be rejoicing in a splendidly independent mind. It�s a wonderful feeling, I promise you. Try it. Go on.
Theland.What a tortuous way to put a square peg into a round hole.So the gospel writers who quoted a prophet actually meant that another prophet said it? Yeah right...
That is like saying that the quote "to be or not to be, that is the question" comes from Romeo and Juliet even though it is actually in Hamlet.
Theland, when you start copying and pasting from the works of a self righteous, arrogant, nasty, pice of sh!t, that is J.P. Holding, you begin to lose all credability.I actually know christians who hold the concieted muppet in contempt.On his website, anyone who challenges him is subjected to a barrage of abuse and name calling rather than a reasonable debate.
On the issue of the origen of the universe, you talk about first causes but this only removes the problem a step because then you need to ask who created god, ad infinitum.And if god is eternal then why cant the universe be eternal? And whose god are we talking about anyway?
Can you be sure that Allah isnt the "true" god.And if it is the christian god then which christian god since there are many 1000's of christian denominations, all with different views of god?
Finally...why did your god choose to reveal himself in a book when 2/3 thirds of the worlds population are illiterate?
Very strange...
That is like saying that the quote "to be or not to be, that is the question" comes from Romeo and Juliet even though it is actually in Hamlet.
Theland, when you start copying and pasting from the works of a self righteous, arrogant, nasty, pice of sh!t, that is J.P. Holding, you begin to lose all credability.I actually know christians who hold the concieted muppet in contempt.On his website, anyone who challenges him is subjected to a barrage of abuse and name calling rather than a reasonable debate.
On the issue of the origen of the universe, you talk about first causes but this only removes the problem a step because then you need to ask who created god, ad infinitum.And if god is eternal then why cant the universe be eternal? And whose god are we talking about anyway?
Can you be sure that Allah isnt the "true" god.And if it is the christian god then which christian god since there are many 1000's of christian denominations, all with different views of god?
Finally...why did your god choose to reveal himself in a book when 2/3 thirds of the worlds population are illiterate?
Very strange...
having just reread my post I can't believe that I just spelt piece "pice" wrong (in reference to J.P. Holding) after talking about illiteraturecy<<<spelt that wrong as well havn't I?
Ah well. It is valentine's day and Ive shared a bottle or two with Mrs. Wizard while watching a movie.Now thats what love is about, NOT wondering if some mythical being is going to BBQ me for eternity in his loving hell...
Ah well. It is valentine's day and Ive shared a bottle or two with Mrs. Wizard while watching a movie.Now thats what love is about, NOT wondering if some mythical being is going to BBQ me for eternity in his loving hell...
My sincere apologies chakka for jumping the que.Maybe if we work together with Theland we can double our chances of curing him of this mania.
I know that the prognosis isnt promising but we have a duty to help those less fortunate than ourselves.
Theland, hang on in there and we will do everything in our power to help you on your road to recovery...
I know that the prognosis isnt promising but we have a duty to help those less fortunate than ourselves.
Theland, hang on in there and we will do everything in our power to help you on your road to recovery...
chakka35 & Wizard69 - Why thank you for your kind offers to help me to see the light.
I am sure that in the private sector, such personalised therapy would cost me an outrageous fortune, and here am I, among friends on Answerbank, about to benefit from your combined therapeutic benevolence.
I am speechless ... well almost!
I have to leave this thread for a little while to attend to .... the dentist, (you don't do fillings by any chance do you?)
Anyway, as Arnie says, "I'll be back," with an explanation for the supposed "failed" prophecy regarding Nebuchadnezzar and the Egyptians.
Speak later.
I am sure that in the private sector, such personalised therapy would cost me an outrageous fortune, and here am I, among friends on Answerbank, about to benefit from your combined therapeutic benevolence.
I am speechless ... well almost!
I have to leave this thread for a little while to attend to .... the dentist, (you don't do fillings by any chance do you?)
Anyway, as Arnie says, "I'll be back," with an explanation for the supposed "failed" prophecy regarding Nebuchadnezzar and the Egyptians.
Speak later.
