Water Divining

[naomi24]

I’ve just been listening to ‘The Bottom Line’ on Radio 4 where the guests were the vice president of CH2M Hill, the CEO of Veolia Water, and the CEO of Anglian Water, who all said that water diviners are used within their respective industries. One said if he hadn’t seen it with his own eyes, he would never have believed it works. Listen to the last few minutes of the programme from about 27.14.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b036w3b6

Your thoughts?

[naomi24]

Jim, the dowsers don't know how it works either. If they did, they'd enlighten science. ;o)

Mibs, who says I haven't? - but all will not be revealed. ;o)

[jim360]

Indeed they would enlighten, if they could also prove that it does work. Outside anecdote, this evidence/ proof is sadly lacking. Which is the crux of my and Chris's argument. That there is no evidence that dowsing is any better than chance -- perhaps with some degree of intuition added.

[modeller]

You ask why companies do it, because as far as I know ,its no results no fee. So why not ?
I use to us a couple of empty biros and a couple of coat hanger wires. I dont think the materials matter.
I don't know how it works but it's nothing to do with water. It shows up any foreign object as in the case of my class of 13 yr olds when they found all those coins and a few coca cola caps. Not all the kids were successful about 8 out of the class of 25.
I must have another go with my grandchildren . They might find my lost keys.

[jim360]

So what were the other 17 children, then?

I don't think it takes any special paranormal phenomenon or a pair of sticks to walk through a field and find random junk lying around.

[naomi24]

Jim, I know what you and Chris are saying - of course I do - but I do wonder if science might be missing something relevant in all of this. One thing I don't think it could be is 'any special paranormal phenomenon' as you put it.

modeller, is that right? No success no fee? That sounds feasible. The men interviewed head major companies so they are clearly not fools - and major companies don't spend money without getting a good return for it - so your explanation would make sense. Thank you.

Having said that, these men clearly think it works often enough, otherwise they wouldn't bother to call the dowsers in at all.

[jim360]

Well it's not impossible that scientists are missing something, but I can't see what. Why should two sticks -- two of anything you can get your hands on, it seems -- managed to detect water through feet of soil, when there's likely to be plenty of water all around? Any plant life should throw it off, for example, as there's going to be a fair bit of water in that, or just in the soil in general --unless it's not rained for weeks on end.

It just seems to be implausible. And despite all the claims to the contrary in this thread and elsewhere, no progress has been made in understanding the idea, or even in demonstrating that it works under controlled conditions. (Perhaps they should do another test with metal pipes, though, just in case that made a difference.)

So long as it appears to work, people will believe in it, but that doesn't change much. Incidentally, thanks to modeller for providing the best explanation yet as to why water companies might make use of this. Better certainly than mine.

Good night Naomi.

[chrisgel]

Oops - Someone's telling porkies.
Water is vital, so we’ve got to do everything we can to hang on to what we’ve got. We consistently hold one of the best leakage records in the industry and continually strive to improve our performance. But we don’t rely on divining sticks to find wayward water – we keep our ear to the ground, using high-tech ear-trumpets to track it down. It’s simple, but beautifully effective. Find out more about leakage.

From
http://www.anglianwater.co.uk/environment/using-water-wisely/projects-and-research/

[naomi24]

Chris, why porkies? Of course they don’t rely on divining sticks. None of the men who were interviewed said they do. One of them simply said ‘there are people in the water industry who can divine leaks with two rods … water divining is not how we find all our leaks today …. but there are people in all of our companies who can do it’ – and they all agreed it can work. Listen to the last couple of minutes of that interview.

[naomi24]

Jim, //Why should two sticks -- two of anything you can get your hands on, it seems -- managed to detect water through feet of soil, when there's likely to be plenty of water all around? //

Pass.

Night Jim.

[pixie373]

Guessing"can work" too

[mibn2cweus]

//Mibs, who says I haven't? - but all will not be revealed. ;o)//

Then we won't bring up that board member, the one with the half-wit nephew who's always dragging a stick behind himself, that needs a job. ;o)

[naomi24]

Shhhhhh....

[bibblebub]

http://www.skepdic.com/dowsing.html

Most dowsers do not consider it important to doubt their dowsing powers or to wonder if they are self-deceived. They never consider doing a controlled scientific test of their powers. They think that the fact that they have been successful over the years at dowsing is proof enough. When dowsers are scientifically tested and fail, they generally react with genuine surprise. Typical is what happened when James Randi tested some dowsers using a protocol they all agreed upon. If they could locate water in underground pipes at an 80% success rate they would get $10,000 (now the prize is over $1,000,000). All the dowsers failed the test, though each claimed to be highly successful in finding water using a variety of non-scientific instruments, including a pendulum. Says Randi, "THE SAD FACT IS THAT DOWSERS ARE NO BETTER AT FINDING WATER THAN ANYONE ELSE. Drill a well almost anywhere in an area where water is geologically possible, and you will find it."

(my capitals)

[naomi24]

We've already spoken about Randi and his test.

[bibblebub]

i thought that it was worth adding the quote

[pixie373]

It was, bibblebub

[naomi24]

Sorry, bibblebub. I didn't mean to sound sharp. I thought you hadn't read the rest of the posts so was telling you what went before - all whilst trying to encourage three reluctant dogs into the garden for their night time ablutions. Multi-tasking isn't working. :o/

[birdie1971]

I'm sorry to all those who believe otherwise but water divining doesn't work. It's been double-blind tested again and again and the results are ALWAYS the same – it's no more reliable than guessing. The fact that large companies use this so-called technique proves nothing other than companies, no matter how large, are run by people. And those people are not immune to believing nonsense any more or less than anyone else.

For all those who believe it works, ask yourself this: how? How does it work? By what mechanism are the rods attracted to the inert material called water? And apparently, it doesn't have to be water – it can be anything the diviner wants to find. Once again, how does that work? How do the rods “know” what the diviner is searching for?

This whole thing is utter nonsense and is proven to be so and yet like proverbial rubber-duck, it keeps resurfacing no matter how often it is sunk.

[birdie1971]

I forgot to add these links to my last post:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing#Scientific_appraisal
http://www.skepdic.com/dowsing.html

[birdie1971]

For more proof of this nonsense (if more were needed) listen to the chap at 40:50 who says this:

“... and another reason why it's very hard to divine water that's still because... diving is a water... where the electricity is in your body and electricity is running and you're picking it up... the water is running and, and.. and, and your rod and the electricity in your body works that way...”