News1 min ago
The Inherent Human Need To Believe In Something...
62 Answers
some people cite the fact that, all over the planet, for thousands of years humans have believed in gods of some sort - as a kind of proof that gods must exist - if so many people believe it.
but actually i think this argument really just proves the opposite.
it proves humans inherent need to feel there is a higher purpose.
it shows its in our NATURE to search for more and to invent it if necessary.
all these gods take so many different forms and have many different ways, ways that suit the paticular society.
they also note the really remote tribes who have no outside contact who also know about god etc.
but each one totally believes that theirs is the one true god - so doesn't that show how it all MUST just be all in our minds?
if there was only one true god - wouldn't all these remote tribes all be worshiping the same one?
wouldn't the 'real' god, make sure they knew about him?
if all these other gods are false idols - why wouldn't 'god' try to correct them? why would he just let them blindly believe a fake one?
it cannot be the old chestnut of freewill - because that can only work when someone knows the 'truth' yet chooses the wrong path - so what about people who don't even know a path exists in the first place?
how can god expect people to follow him, if he does not make himself known to them...?
but actually i think this argument really just proves the opposite.
it proves humans inherent need to feel there is a higher purpose.
it shows its in our NATURE to search for more and to invent it if necessary.
all these gods take so many different forms and have many different ways, ways that suit the paticular society.
they also note the really remote tribes who have no outside contact who also know about god etc.
but each one totally believes that theirs is the one true god - so doesn't that show how it all MUST just be all in our minds?
if there was only one true god - wouldn't all these remote tribes all be worshiping the same one?
wouldn't the 'real' god, make sure they knew about him?
if all these other gods are false idols - why wouldn't 'god' try to correct them? why would he just let them blindly believe a fake one?
it cannot be the old chestnut of freewill - because that can only work when someone knows the 'truth' yet chooses the wrong path - so what about people who don't even know a path exists in the first place?
how can god expect people to follow him, if he does not make himself known to them...?
Answers
Best Answer
No best answer has yet been selected by joko. Once a best answer has been selected, it will be shown here.
For more on marking an answer as the "Best Answer", please visit our FAQ.
Hah, the irony!
I'd like to think I've thought carefully about this all, and also that I know quite a lot about Science and religion. A consequence of having an attentive godmother and mother who both gave me plenty of exposure to Christianity, while also buying me Science books. So I have seen both world views and know which one in the end I am going for.
I'd like to think I've thought carefully about this all, and also that I know quite a lot about Science and religion. A consequence of having an attentive godmother and mother who both gave me plenty of exposure to Christianity, while also buying me Science books. So I have seen both world views and know which one in the end I am going for.
Who's to say I didn't? It would be dangerous of you to assume that my entire life experiences can be summarised in a single post on AnswerBank. Not only that but it's possible I learned more from Christianity than even I realised. But certainly I don't think i learned the truth about the Universe, if that's what you mean.
jim; sorry for any misunderstanding, but your own words were; "So I have seen both world views and know which one in the end I am going for" the implication being that you are 'going for' only 'one'. I found this surprising myself, because your posts are usually among the more tolerant of diverse views.
Well I must say I'm flattered and I do try to be tolerant if possible. I believe there is no God but that religious views overall are an important and good part of life. I've seen too many religious people who are also very kind and wonderful people to feel that it's really an excuse for evil, even if people have twisted it to be that.
So in that sense the only world view that I'm really referring to is whether or not there is a God, when I say I've made my choice. Sorry too for any misunderstanding but I don't think that my latest post will have cleared things up much!
So in that sense the only world view that I'm really referring to is whether or not there is a God, when I say I've made my choice. Sorry too for any misunderstanding but I don't think that my latest post will have cleared things up much!
Khandro - “... birdie; In the 20th century the total number of deaths brought about by secular acts unmotivated by any religious ideology whatsoever, number around 200,000,000...”
You then go on to mention (amongst others) Adolf Hitler and Jozef Stalin.
As it so happens I've just watched a debate between the late Christopher Hitchens and a chap called John Lennox where this very subject came up...
[Regarding atheists regimes in the 20th century]... “If you take out the word Fascism from any history of the 1920s and 1930s and replace it with the words 'the Catholic right-wing' you don't need to change anything else. Fascism is just another name for the extreme right-wing forces of the Roman Catholic Church. That's true whether it's Portugal, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, Italy; all of these movements had a specific concordat with the Vatican. You may not say that Fascism is a secular or atheist movement. Not if you don't want to do great violence to history. The churches of Germany celebrated the birthday of Adolf Hitler every year until 1945 by order. Hitler's first significant treaty of the Nazi regime was with the Vatican; a concordat that gave the Church a monopoly on the education of German children in return for a pact that abolished Catholic parties that might abolish the rule of Hitler. That's not secularism. It's not atheism either. It's quite wrong to say that it is. It's a form of Paganism as a matter of fact that would have involved, as well as a compromise with Christianity, the revival of some Nordic myths which weren't secular or atheist either.
In the case of Soviet Union where the population had been told for centuries that the Tzar was like the Pope – divinely inspired and divinely empowered – and where serfdom was sanctioned by the Russian Orthodox Church which was a state church. If you were Joseph Stalin – seminarian graduate seizing power – if you don't know how to exploit a reservoir of credulity and stupidity and passivity and servility like that, you shouldn't be in business! And what did he do? He replicated the inquisition, the heresy hunts, the promotion of himself as the divine one from who all blessings flowed. And to this day, the Russian Orthodox Church which never ceased to support Stalin has actually (under Putin) started to produce Icons that show Stalin with a halo around his head. This is not atheism nor is it secularism.” [Christopher Hitchens]
Religious folk like yourself do like to claim (despite all evidence to the contrary) that Hitler and Stalin were atheists through and through. Either you're just badly informed or you're being wilfully ignorant and deliberately spreading lies.
You then go on to mention (amongst others) Adolf Hitler and Jozef Stalin.
As it so happens I've just watched a debate between the late Christopher Hitchens and a chap called John Lennox where this very subject came up...
[Regarding atheists regimes in the 20th century]... “If you take out the word Fascism from any history of the 1920s and 1930s and replace it with the words 'the Catholic right-wing' you don't need to change anything else. Fascism is just another name for the extreme right-wing forces of the Roman Catholic Church. That's true whether it's Portugal, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, Italy; all of these movements had a specific concordat with the Vatican. You may not say that Fascism is a secular or atheist movement. Not if you don't want to do great violence to history. The churches of Germany celebrated the birthday of Adolf Hitler every year until 1945 by order. Hitler's first significant treaty of the Nazi regime was with the Vatican; a concordat that gave the Church a monopoly on the education of German children in return for a pact that abolished Catholic parties that might abolish the rule of Hitler. That's not secularism. It's not atheism either. It's quite wrong to say that it is. It's a form of Paganism as a matter of fact that would have involved, as well as a compromise with Christianity, the revival of some Nordic myths which weren't secular or atheist either.
In the case of Soviet Union where the population had been told for centuries that the Tzar was like the Pope – divinely inspired and divinely empowered – and where serfdom was sanctioned by the Russian Orthodox Church which was a state church. If you were Joseph Stalin – seminarian graduate seizing power – if you don't know how to exploit a reservoir of credulity and stupidity and passivity and servility like that, you shouldn't be in business! And what did he do? He replicated the inquisition, the heresy hunts, the promotion of himself as the divine one from who all blessings flowed. And to this day, the Russian Orthodox Church which never ceased to support Stalin has actually (under Putin) started to produce Icons that show Stalin with a halo around his head. This is not atheism nor is it secularism.” [Christopher Hitchens]
Religious folk like yourself do like to claim (despite all evidence to the contrary) that Hitler and Stalin were atheists through and through. Either you're just badly informed or you're being wilfully ignorant and deliberately spreading lies.
Ratter@ Yes, courage, honesty and humility will help us to avoid the trap of saving face. Paul said that some viewed him as a fool. (1 Cor. 4:10) I do not mind if people view me as a fool if you know in your heart that you are doing God’s will. Or does fear of other people’s opinions prevent you from doing what is right.
Sorry for not reading through all the replies, but if this hasn't been mentioned yet and to answer the op may I recommend reading 'why we believe in God(s)' by J. Anderson.
He is an eminent psychiatrist and the book has a forward by Richard Dawkins.
Amazon.co.uk User Recommendation
He is an eminent psychiatrist and the book has a forward by Richard Dawkins.
Amazon.co.uk User Recommendation
the problem with all the good deeds done in the name of religion - and there is no doubt there are many of them - is that often they are done through fear ... from a belief that if they don't do these things god will punish them and they will go to hell...
and if you believe that those people only did good because they were religious and believed in god, then you are saying that if we had no knowledge of god, then they would not have done those things - therefore those people are not TRULY good people ... they do it because they think they have too
its easy to be 'good' if you are terrified not to be...
anyone who only does good things through fear and force, is not a truly good person...
the reason why many atheists are much better people than theists - is because they do good - but expect no reward in heaven for it ... they do not do it through fear of hell or of angering god - they do it because they genuinely want to.
that is the mark of a truly good person ...
and if you believe that those people only did good because they were religious and believed in god, then you are saying that if we had no knowledge of god, then they would not have done those things - therefore those people are not TRULY good people ... they do it because they think they have too
its easy to be 'good' if you are terrified not to be...
anyone who only does good things through fear and force, is not a truly good person...
the reason why many atheists are much better people than theists - is because they do good - but expect no reward in heaven for it ... they do not do it through fear of hell or of angering god - they do it because they genuinely want to.
that is the mark of a truly good person ...
That's an interesting point joko that I've heard before. I don't know how much truth it holds with the Christians I know - will have to ask them why they feel motivated to do good. Even so I probably wouldn't think of any good I do as "better" just because it is not motivated by any "fear". After all, they do more charity work than I do, andeven if it's motivated by fear then it's still good work nonetheless and thank goodness that someone does it. What is perhaps more troubling is that so many people wirthout this motivation of fear just aren't good people.
Jim360 - “... What is perhaps more troubling is that so many people wirthout this motivation of fear [of perpetual internment in Hell] just aren't good people...”
You're right in so far that not all atheists or agnostics are 'good' people. But then again, there are a great many religious people who are equally unpleasant. The belief in a supreme being does not guarantee that a person will be 'good' any more than a person with no faith will be 'bad'.
Studies on morality have shown that when it comes to doing the morally correct thing in a given situation, atheists and religious people score pretty much identically.
You're right in so far that not all atheists or agnostics are 'good' people. But then again, there are a great many religious people who are equally unpleasant. The belief in a supreme being does not guarantee that a person will be 'good' any more than a person with no faith will be 'bad'.
Studies on morality have shown that when it comes to doing the morally correct thing in a given situation, atheists and religious people score pretty much identically.
I remember Dawkins (I think) quoting an Anglican (I think) bishop as saying something along the lines of: “If you don’t ultimately have to answer for your actions what is to stop you raping, murdering and so on?”.
Now this is from Thomas Williams LC ThD in “Greater than You Think”):
“Let’s say you are a typical secular humanist, who believes that God doesn’t exist, death ends everything, and man is nothing but a clod of matter…Maybe you have some natural compassion, so you treat your fellows well – when you feel like it. Other time you don’t, SINCE IN THE END …IT REALLY DOESN’T MATTER [stress VE], Now let’s imagine you’re a Christian… not naturally empathetic …but you are convinced that after death you will be judged by your deed and whatever you do your least brethren you do to your Lord. Which of these two hypothetical persons – Sam the Secularist or Chrissy the Christian – is more likely to work for a truly humane society? You make the call”.
Oh dear, what a mean and shrivelled account the Right Reverend gentleman and the Legionary of Christ give of their own motives. And (forgetting us atheists) what a calumny on the millions of decent Christians who do good things to others not for profit, not from fear, but because they are good people.
Now this is from Thomas Williams LC ThD in “Greater than You Think”):
“Let’s say you are a typical secular humanist, who believes that God doesn’t exist, death ends everything, and man is nothing but a clod of matter…Maybe you have some natural compassion, so you treat your fellows well – when you feel like it. Other time you don’t, SINCE IN THE END …IT REALLY DOESN’T MATTER [stress VE], Now let’s imagine you’re a Christian… not naturally empathetic …but you are convinced that after death you will be judged by your deed and whatever you do your least brethren you do to your Lord. Which of these two hypothetical persons – Sam the Secularist or Chrissy the Christian – is more likely to work for a truly humane society? You make the call”.
Oh dear, what a mean and shrivelled account the Right Reverend gentleman and the Legionary of Christ give of their own motives. And (forgetting us atheists) what a calumny on the millions of decent Christians who do good things to others not for profit, not from fear, but because they are good people.
Latest Posts
Quizzes & Puzzles2 mins ago
Quizzes & Puzzles8 mins ago
Crosswords14 mins ago
ChatterBank17 mins ago
Related Questions
Sorry, we can't find any related questions. Try using the search bar at the top of the page to search for some keywords, or choose a topic and submit your own question.