Diane Abbott, Time To Forgive And...
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Religious intolerance; who is to blame?
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Does religious intolerance stem from the teachings inherent within different teachings, or from the manipulation of those teachings by politicians and clerics?
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it's off-topic, but 'Imagine' is a sort of anthem for the simple-minded who are prone to say OOh and AAgh! but do not a lot, you can write and add your own words ad nauseum; 'imagine' for example, everyone being born without genetic disorders, access to 1st class health care for everyone, enough food for all the starving babies .... it goes on and on, but unfortunately naomi, it doesn't move on the plot one little bit. We all have to live in the real world, stop imagining and wake up!
I just accessed the Muslim access site..
// "Did not Muhammad call on all Muslims to kill the infidels?" The answer is absolutely not!' and it goes on to explain why : //
So 'slay the infidels' doesn't actually mean 'slay the infidels'. Who'd know?
It's a good job I accessed your link before I read the koran, because I may well have interpreted it incorrectly and done the wrong thing. It would be an easy mistake to make.
Could god have not been a bit less ambiguous? A simple 'Do not' in front of 'slay the infidels' would have saved an awful lot of confusion.
// "Did not Muhammad call on all Muslims to kill the infidels?" The answer is absolutely not!' and it goes on to explain why : //
So 'slay the infidels' doesn't actually mean 'slay the infidels'. Who'd know?
It's a good job I accessed your link before I read the koran, because I may well have interpreted it incorrectly and done the wrong thing. It would be an easy mistake to make.
Could god have not been a bit less ambiguous? A simple 'Do not' in front of 'slay the infidels' would have saved an awful lot of confusion.
Jack, if ‘lol’ were part of my vocabulary, that’s exactly what I’d say in response to your very astute post. There’s Khandro trying for all he’s worth to rationalise religion and to excuse its more unsavoury counsel – and I’ve burst his rosy bubble by giving him the grubby facts - and he tells me to stop imagining and wake up! How funny! Oh, sod it. LOL!!
argorstran , //Just a thought Naomi , would you say that reciting the words of a song that mean a lot to you is very similar to a believer reciting a prayer ? "imagine" paints a picture of the world as you would like it to be - so to (for a Christian )does the "Our Father" prayer ?
Just a thought....//
It is a thought – and a very perceptive thought. Yes, the words of the song do paint a picture of the world as I would like it to be, but whilst the lyrics could be perceived to resemble a prayer insofar as they amount to wishful thinking, I don’t have faith in mankind the way the religious appear to have faith in imaginary gods, and therefore I am suffering under no delusion. I know that wishful thinking is futile – and I know it’s never going to happen. God is made in man’s image – and that image is not pleasant. That’s reality for you.
Ludwig, you always make me laugh. :o)
argorstran , //Just a thought Naomi , would you say that reciting the words of a song that mean a lot to you is very similar to a believer reciting a prayer ? "imagine" paints a picture of the world as you would like it to be - so to (for a Christian )does the "Our Father" prayer ?
Just a thought....//
It is a thought – and a very perceptive thought. Yes, the words of the song do paint a picture of the world as I would like it to be, but whilst the lyrics could be perceived to resemble a prayer insofar as they amount to wishful thinking, I don’t have faith in mankind the way the religious appear to have faith in imaginary gods, and therefore I am suffering under no delusion. I know that wishful thinking is futile – and I know it’s never going to happen. God is made in man’s image – and that image is not pleasant. That’s reality for you.
Ludwig, you always make me laugh. :o)
beso; //Religions don't stop hunger or disease either but they do start most of the conflicts on the planet.//. Religions are inanimate, and cannot independently act, however, many adherents to a variety of religions do help the unfortunate by medical and food supplies to those in need. Equally, religions per se do not start conflicts, this is done - as my question poses - by manipulation, by politicians and clerics.
Naomi, where did you get the Jesus & sword quote from ?
Luke 22-36 Jesus told his disciples 2 swords would be enough against his transgressors.....the swords were for defence.
Mark 6-11 If any place will not welcome or listen to you, leave & wipe the dust from your feet.....hardly murderous threats.
The reason he was crucified was that he gained too large a following.
Luke 22-36 Jesus told his disciples 2 swords would be enough against his transgressors.....the swords were for defence.
Mark 6-11 If any place will not welcome or listen to you, leave & wipe the dust from your feet.....hardly murderous threats.
The reason he was crucified was that he gained too large a following.
Khandro - “.... but 'Imagine' is a sort of anthem for the simple-minded who are prone to say OOh and Aagh!... We all have to live in the real world, stop imagining and wake up!...”
It seems that 'jackthehat' beat me to it. However, it's such a fundamental question that it's worth reiterating again. How on earth can you claim we have to stop 'imagining' and 'wake up' when you believe in a supreme deity creator for which there is not one shred of empirical proof? 'Wake up'? Pot, kettle and black, my friend.
You also earlier posted, “... Christ also did not ask people to kill one another, and neither did Mohammad...”
Not true I'm afraid. Mr Mohammed was not averse to advocating the death of people who opposed him...
"Allah's Messenger said, 'Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, 'Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, 'Yes.' Maslama said, 'Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.' Muhammad said, 'You may do so.'" [Bukhari]
It seems that 'jackthehat' beat me to it. However, it's such a fundamental question that it's worth reiterating again. How on earth can you claim we have to stop 'imagining' and 'wake up' when you believe in a supreme deity creator for which there is not one shred of empirical proof? 'Wake up'? Pot, kettle and black, my friend.
You also earlier posted, “... Christ also did not ask people to kill one another, and neither did Mohammad...”
Not true I'm afraid. Mr Mohammed was not averse to advocating the death of people who opposed him...
"Allah's Messenger said, 'Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, 'Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, 'Yes.' Maslama said, 'Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.' Muhammad said, 'You may do so.'" [Bukhari]
Tamborine - “... The reason he was crucified was that he gained too large a following...”
Indeed. Jesus was followed around by multitudes and posed a very real threat to the geopolitical stability of the region. Evidence of which is meticulously documented in many and varied contemporaneous documents... oh, hang on...
Sorry. My mistake. There's actually very little evidence that Jesus existed at all.
Indeed. Jesus was followed around by multitudes and posed a very real threat to the geopolitical stability of the region. Evidence of which is meticulously documented in many and varied contemporaneous documents... oh, hang on...
Sorry. My mistake. There's actually very little evidence that Jesus existed at all.
Tamborine, I didn’t suggest Jesus made ‘murderous threats’. Where did you get that from? I specifically said that I don’t recall any record of him telling people to kill, but he did tell his disciples to buy swords.
Luke 22:36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one…….
I agree it was probably for defensive purposes – although where that puts his instruction to ‘turn the other cheek’ is debateable – but that’s another subject.
//The reason he was crucified was that he gained too large a following.//
As Birdie says, the political situation at that time was very precarious, but since there are no official records of the trial, all we can do is to try to separate the wheat from the chaff. Unlike the Jews, the Romans worshipped multiple gods and had no law against blasphemy. Therefore, the many preachers roaming around at that time simply preaching religion would not have concerned them. However, one who was reputed to be the King of the Jews and who was gathering a sizeable following would have concerned them – greatly. Since Jesus felt it necessary to take defensive measures by instructing his disciples to arm themselves, he was clearly aware that he was vulnerable - and don’t forget he had only recently caused mayhem in the temple when he was arrested. Despite the unauthenticated tales of Pilate washing his hands, and the Jews baying for Jesus’ blood, the Romans didn’t execute Jesus without reason. As a potential threat to Roman rule, and hence, to the fragile stability of the area, the Romans saw him as a trouble-maker – and that’s why he was condemned to death. (Actually, I think it’s quite possible that he may have been the rightful heir to the throne – but that’s another subject too. I think the whole thing makes a great mystery story).
Birdie, of course you’re right about Mohammed – as I said he was a war-monger.
Luke 22:36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one…….
I agree it was probably for defensive purposes – although where that puts his instruction to ‘turn the other cheek’ is debateable – but that’s another subject.
//The reason he was crucified was that he gained too large a following.//
As Birdie says, the political situation at that time was very precarious, but since there are no official records of the trial, all we can do is to try to separate the wheat from the chaff. Unlike the Jews, the Romans worshipped multiple gods and had no law against blasphemy. Therefore, the many preachers roaming around at that time simply preaching religion would not have concerned them. However, one who was reputed to be the King of the Jews and who was gathering a sizeable following would have concerned them – greatly. Since Jesus felt it necessary to take defensive measures by instructing his disciples to arm themselves, he was clearly aware that he was vulnerable - and don’t forget he had only recently caused mayhem in the temple when he was arrested. Despite the unauthenticated tales of Pilate washing his hands, and the Jews baying for Jesus’ blood, the Romans didn’t execute Jesus without reason. As a potential threat to Roman rule, and hence, to the fragile stability of the area, the Romans saw him as a trouble-maker – and that’s why he was condemned to death. (Actually, I think it’s quite possible that he may have been the rightful heir to the throne – but that’s another subject too. I think the whole thing makes a great mystery story).
Birdie, of course you’re right about Mohammed – as I said he was a war-monger.
birdie;//...you believe in a supreme deity creator...// When have I ever said that?
You may well be correct about Mohammad, I have already said I have no knowledge other than comes from secondary sources, it seems there are as many problems of translations into English in the Koran, as there are in the Bible.
But why don't you address my question instead of trying to steer away from it by the usual boring polemics?
You may well be correct about Mohammad, I have already said I have no knowledge other than comes from secondary sources, it seems there are as many problems of translations into English in the Koran, as there are in the Bible.
But why don't you address my question instead of trying to steer away from it by the usual boring polemics?
// Allah's Messenger said, 'Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, 'Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, 'Yes.' //
I'm sure this isn't as simple as it looks. There's bound to be a scholar somewhere that can put a less murderous spin on it.
I'm sure this isn't as simple as it looks. There's bound to be a scholar somewhere that can put a less murderous spin on it.
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