My Dearest Friend Ducksie - R I P
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stigmata.
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how can it be explained?
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LogicA - “... [of stigmata] There are false cases, there are true cases...”
I agree that there are false cases. I disagree that there are true cases. Do you have any credible evidence to offer that stigmata is genuine and of supernatural causes?
As for Padre Pio, he claimed that he had the pain and the marks of stigma in the palms of his hands and on the soles of his feet. As I alluded to earlier, when a person is crucified, the nails are driven through the wrists or the forearms and not through the palms as the palm does not contain the mass necessary to support the upper body of fully grown human when they are mounted on a wooden cross.
Also, contemporary reports of Padre Pio from his fellow Catholics do not paint a good picture of him. He was suspected of deception from the Pope himself and the psychologist and physician, Agostino Gemelli (founder of Milan's Catholic University of the Sacred Heart) stated that Padre Pio was, “... an ignorant and self-mutilating psychopath who exploited people’s credulity...”.
What I find incredible is that people accept that stigmata is real and a sign from God. If God wanted to prove his existence I can think of hundreds if not thousands of other ways to make his presence felt. Apparently inflicting the wounds suffered by Jesus on the cross (in the wrong anatomical places) on random people in an effort to prove that Jesus was divine, stretches credibility to breaking point. If Pio's wounds were real and Gemelli's assessment was incorrect, then it is also yet another example of God inflicting unnecessary pain and suffering on someone who didn't deserve it.
I agree that there are false cases. I disagree that there are true cases. Do you have any credible evidence to offer that stigmata is genuine and of supernatural causes?
As for Padre Pio, he claimed that he had the pain and the marks of stigma in the palms of his hands and on the soles of his feet. As I alluded to earlier, when a person is crucified, the nails are driven through the wrists or the forearms and not through the palms as the palm does not contain the mass necessary to support the upper body of fully grown human when they are mounted on a wooden cross.
Also, contemporary reports of Padre Pio from his fellow Catholics do not paint a good picture of him. He was suspected of deception from the Pope himself and the psychologist and physician, Agostino Gemelli (founder of Milan's Catholic University of the Sacred Heart) stated that Padre Pio was, “... an ignorant and self-mutilating psychopath who exploited people’s credulity...”.
What I find incredible is that people accept that stigmata is real and a sign from God. If God wanted to prove his existence I can think of hundreds if not thousands of other ways to make his presence felt. Apparently inflicting the wounds suffered by Jesus on the cross (in the wrong anatomical places) on random people in an effort to prove that Jesus was divine, stretches credibility to breaking point. If Pio's wounds were real and Gemelli's assessment was incorrect, then it is also yet another example of God inflicting unnecessary pain and suffering on someone who didn't deserve it.
The Pope has absolutely no bearing on the sanctity of Padre Pio. Do you really think that teh Pope would reject his canonization !! I knew about Pope John's suspicions, but so what. Are you claiming something more for John than you do for any other person ? Why ? You don't accept any special Papal powers, isn't that arguing from ambiguous reference.
Here is the book :
Padre Pio Under Investigation
The Secret Vatican Files
ISBN: 9781586174057
Author: Francesco Castelli
The religious authorities of Jesus time thought Him a fraud too. What is your criterion for who has the goods when it comes to spiritual matters. Your argument is to me Arguing from Ambiguous Reference, the Pope counts when he agrees with you and doesn't when he doesn't agree with you.
Here is the book :
Padre Pio Under Investigation
The Secret Vatican Files
ISBN: 9781586174057
Author: Francesco Castelli
The religious authorities of Jesus time thought Him a fraud too. What is your criterion for who has the goods when it comes to spiritual matters. Your argument is to me Arguing from Ambiguous Reference, the Pope counts when he agrees with you and doesn't when he doesn't agree with you.
LogicA -
“... What is your criterion for who has the goods when it comes to spiritual matters...”
I couldn't care less for what a Pope thinks about a man who claims to have the stigmata. The Pope's views on matters such as this is an irrelevance. I only take issue with the Pope's opinions when they have a direct and very real impact on people's lives. But that's a different matter entirely from the one under discussion. I only mentioned it to demonstrate that Padre Pio's alleged injuries were not universally accepted, even by people of his own faith.
With reference to your above quote I shall simply say that logic and rationality has the 'goods' when it comes to so called spiritual matters. As I mentioned in my last post, does it not strike you as odd that God with all his power and influence; with all his majesty and magnificence; with the power to create an entire universe and every living thing within that universe; he chose to 'prove' his existence by inflicting pain and suffering upon a man for no apparent reason whatsoever?
If Padre Pio's stigmata are genuine, do you not think it abhorrent that God would chose to inflict this pain and suffering on him?
It is far more reasonable to logical to conclude that Padre Pio's injuries were not the result of divine intervention. They were the deliberate work of a fraudulent con-man who ultimately succeeded in his fraud as we are still talking about this delusional person today.
It is more than likely that Padre Pio was suffering from Münchausen syndrome.
http://en.wikipedia.o...3%BCnchausen_syndrome
“... What is your criterion for who has the goods when it comes to spiritual matters...”
I couldn't care less for what a Pope thinks about a man who claims to have the stigmata. The Pope's views on matters such as this is an irrelevance. I only take issue with the Pope's opinions when they have a direct and very real impact on people's lives. But that's a different matter entirely from the one under discussion. I only mentioned it to demonstrate that Padre Pio's alleged injuries were not universally accepted, even by people of his own faith.
With reference to your above quote I shall simply say that logic and rationality has the 'goods' when it comes to so called spiritual matters. As I mentioned in my last post, does it not strike you as odd that God with all his power and influence; with all his majesty and magnificence; with the power to create an entire universe and every living thing within that universe; he chose to 'prove' his existence by inflicting pain and suffering upon a man for no apparent reason whatsoever?
If Padre Pio's stigmata are genuine, do you not think it abhorrent that God would chose to inflict this pain and suffering on him?
It is far more reasonable to logical to conclude that Padre Pio's injuries were not the result of divine intervention. They were the deliberate work of a fraudulent con-man who ultimately succeeded in his fraud as we are still talking about this delusional person today.
It is more than likely that Padre Pio was suffering from Münchausen syndrome.
http://en.wikipedia.o...3%BCnchausen_syndrome
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