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A question for Christians
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You're told Jesus died for you personally because God loves you, and this appalling death was necessary in order for your sins to be forgiven. Of course, God is omnipotent, apparently, so we cannot possibly believe there was no other way, but that aside, I would hate to think that someone deliberately planned to torture and execute a man on my behalf, so given a choice, would you have allowed it to happen?
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The theory is - as you know, Naomi! - that God had to allow Jesus to be tortured and killed so that a pure man could enter the Kingdom of Heaven, because nobody else could get in otherwise, after him. It's not my personal belief - but this is what we are told. I suspect that there are many people who offer thanks for this sacrifice but if asked to make a choice now (if it had to be done again), could not put anyone forward for this ultimate step, even if it meant that millions after them would benefit in an afterlife.
We don't get a choice. God already arranged for Jesus to die a terrible death for us whether we asked or not. Consequently we are terribly ungrateful if we don't fall on our faces and worship Him for that sacrifice.
Remember we were all born sinners because God holds the sons responsible to the third and fourth generation of descendents for any sins of our ancestors. Women fare worse bevause they are punishied eternally by greatly increasing the pain of child birth because of what Eve did.
The wonderful, compassionate, forgiving God only forgives those who did the wrong thing, not their descendents.
Remember we were all born sinners because God holds the sons responsible to the third and fourth generation of descendents for any sins of our ancestors. Women fare worse bevause they are punishied eternally by greatly increasing the pain of child birth because of what Eve did.
The wonderful, compassionate, forgiving God only forgives those who did the wrong thing, not their descendents.
It is OK to have children with your virgin daughters. Also to offer them to be raped to save your guests from the indignity. When the rapists reject your daughters you can hand over your housekeeper to be raped until she is dead then chop up her body into pieces and send the parts to your relatives.
Lott did all this but the Bible describes him as a rightous man. That would be because he duely worships as prescribed and that is enough for God to overlook anything else.
Lott did all this but the Bible describes him as a rightous man. That would be because he duely worships as prescribed and that is enough for God to overlook anything else.
//The theory is - as you know, Naomi! - that God had to allow Jesus to be tortured and killed so that a pure man could enter the Kingdom of Heaven, because nobody else could get in otherwise,//
That makes no sense at all, Boxy - even with the exclamation mark. God HAD to allow Jesus to be tortured? Why? Who made him do it? And why couldn't anyone else get into heaven unless Jesus suffered and died? Being omniscient, God must have known that Jesus was a pure man without putting him through that horror. As far as I can ascertain, God's the boss, God makes the rules, and being omnipotent, it follows that he can change the rules whenever, and however, he likes - can't he? Since he is omniscient, and knows the secrets of all hearts, he can surely pick out the genuine cases and forgive their sins if he so chooses - just as he can allow them into heaven if he wants to. It's his house.
On the occasion in question, God certainly lived up to his well-documented sadistic nature by demanding blood and pain in return for his favours. Why people worship him and think he's the best thing that ever happened to the human race continues to elude me - but if someone would care to explain it - without pasting biblical texts - I'm very willing to listen.
That makes no sense at all, Boxy - even with the exclamation mark. God HAD to allow Jesus to be tortured? Why? Who made him do it? And why couldn't anyone else get into heaven unless Jesus suffered and died? Being omniscient, God must have known that Jesus was a pure man without putting him through that horror. As far as I can ascertain, God's the boss, God makes the rules, and being omnipotent, it follows that he can change the rules whenever, and however, he likes - can't he? Since he is omniscient, and knows the secrets of all hearts, he can surely pick out the genuine cases and forgive their sins if he so chooses - just as he can allow them into heaven if he wants to. It's his house.
On the occasion in question, God certainly lived up to his well-documented sadistic nature by demanding blood and pain in return for his favours. Why people worship him and think he's the best thing that ever happened to the human race continues to elude me - but if someone would care to explain it - without pasting biblical texts - I'm very willing to listen.
naomi, you're just teasing because you know that it's perfectly logical:
God sees that religious people are sinning (non-religious people don't recognise sins) and comes to earth in the guise of his son. He then gets himself crucified to demonstrate to God - oh no, to himself, that is - that these sinners deserve to be 'saved'. Not being an idiot, he releases himself from the cross after only a few hours while the other poor sods he has arranged to be crucified have to last for days. Anyway, having satisfied himself that he has...er, well, satisfied himself, he goes back home happy.
Meanwhile mere mortals look on indulgently becasue they know that God likes these games.
God sees that religious people are sinning (non-religious people don't recognise sins) and comes to earth in the guise of his son. He then gets himself crucified to demonstrate to God - oh no, to himself, that is - that these sinners deserve to be 'saved'. Not being an idiot, he releases himself from the cross after only a few hours while the other poor sods he has arranged to be crucified have to last for days. Anyway, having satisfied himself that he has...er, well, satisfied himself, he goes back home happy.
Meanwhile mere mortals look on indulgently becasue they know that God likes these games.
Sarcasm and ridicule are alive and well residing in R & S.
Just a one post visit to express my view.
The complexity of the underlying issues deserves more than yahboo mud slinging, (though custard pies are always humerous and welcome as a lighthearted deviation).
Science is pushing the boundaries of knowledge into realms that can neither be understood without some acceptance of revelation and mystery.
The overall prophetic messages in the Bible relating to the future world bear an uncanny similarity to planet Earth 2011.
Economics, politics, middle East, climate and earthquakes etc, hunger, wars, global unification of all human activity, the list goes on.
Israel is Gods timepiece in human affairs, and science seems to be approaching an interface on the other side of which appears to be spirituality and mystery.
Nobody has all of the answers, so maybe a respectful awe of the unknown may be more appropriate.
Signing off. Keep well.
Just a one post visit to express my view.
The complexity of the underlying issues deserves more than yahboo mud slinging, (though custard pies are always humerous and welcome as a lighthearted deviation).
Science is pushing the boundaries of knowledge into realms that can neither be understood without some acceptance of revelation and mystery.
The overall prophetic messages in the Bible relating to the future world bear an uncanny similarity to planet Earth 2011.
Economics, politics, middle East, climate and earthquakes etc, hunger, wars, global unification of all human activity, the list goes on.
Israel is Gods timepiece in human affairs, and science seems to be approaching an interface on the other side of which appears to be spirituality and mystery.
Nobody has all of the answers, so maybe a respectful awe of the unknown may be more appropriate.
Signing off. Keep well.
Theland1 - “... maybe a respectful awe of the unknown may be more appropriate...”
Yes. That would help matters immeasurably. Everyone standing around in awe with their mouths open in shock, gazing at, “... economics, politics, [the] middle East, climate and earthquakes...”. Let's just do nothing and simply stand and stare and praise God for creating such a wonderfully unfathomable world.
“Nobody has all of the answers...” - No one individual perhaps but religion certainly claims to answer every question you can possibly imagine. The answer is always the same of course.
“... Sarcasm and ridicule are alive and well residing in R & S...” - Indeed they are. For too long, religious dogma has stifled debate about belief systems. It's been a long time coming. Not very long ago, people who expressed such opinions were imprisoned, tortured and killed. The reasons for this barbaric punishment for non-belief are quite obvious – religion cannot stand up to rigorous, logical examination. The arguments and the 'evidence' it presents quickly collapse under scrutiny. You appear to see this as 'ridicule'.
If I held a belief that was wildly at variance with logic and rationality and which could not be disproved, I would expect my beliefs to be openly questioned and indeed, ridiculed. If I believed that invisible, undetectable fire-breathing dragons lived amongst us, I would be labelled 'delusional' or worse. However, the 'existence' of such dragons can never be disproved – therefore vindicating my belief in them. You'd struggle to find someone who concurred with my 'belief' and yet this is exactly the same circular reasoning that religious people cling to. When questioned about it, they cry foul and claim that they're being ridiculed. So be it. I see the questioning of such beliefs to be a healthy thing – the battle of rational thought over irrational belief.
Yes. That would help matters immeasurably. Everyone standing around in awe with their mouths open in shock, gazing at, “... economics, politics, [the] middle East, climate and earthquakes...”. Let's just do nothing and simply stand and stare and praise God for creating such a wonderfully unfathomable world.
“Nobody has all of the answers...” - No one individual perhaps but religion certainly claims to answer every question you can possibly imagine. The answer is always the same of course.
“... Sarcasm and ridicule are alive and well residing in R & S...” - Indeed they are. For too long, religious dogma has stifled debate about belief systems. It's been a long time coming. Not very long ago, people who expressed such opinions were imprisoned, tortured and killed. The reasons for this barbaric punishment for non-belief are quite obvious – religion cannot stand up to rigorous, logical examination. The arguments and the 'evidence' it presents quickly collapse under scrutiny. You appear to see this as 'ridicule'.
If I held a belief that was wildly at variance with logic and rationality and which could not be disproved, I would expect my beliefs to be openly questioned and indeed, ridiculed. If I believed that invisible, undetectable fire-breathing dragons lived amongst us, I would be labelled 'delusional' or worse. However, the 'existence' of such dragons can never be disproved – therefore vindicating my belief in them. You'd struggle to find someone who concurred with my 'belief' and yet this is exactly the same circular reasoning that religious people cling to. When questioned about it, they cry foul and claim that they're being ridiculed. So be it. I see the questioning of such beliefs to be a healthy thing – the battle of rational thought over irrational belief.
Theland, old chap! How lovely to see you here again!!
//Science is pushing the boundaries of knowledge into realms that can neither be understood without some acceptance of revelation and mystery. //
If we accept revelation and mystery, which by its very nature is ... erm ... mysterious ... all we're left with is blind acceptance. There can be no understanding.
My question, which you haven't answered, is intended neither as ridicule or sarcasm. It's simply a logical thought process. If God is omnipotent, then the crucifixion was completely unnecessary and the doctrine of the Christian church is, therefore, nonsense. Furthermore, how anyone can willingly accept, without question, that another should be made to suffer in any way to save the souls of the intellectually needy is quite beyond my comprehension. Where are their principles? If that's the deal, then I'll take my chances with the rest of the self-sufficient in hell because I prefer choose my company on its ethical merits. This malevolent God would never be welcome at my table. Anyone got the corkscrew?
I do hope you stick around, dear Theland. You are missed. Have a custard pie. Sperlatt! :o)
trt, no one knows - but not only can no one prove it - no one can provide the slightest evidence for it.
//Science is pushing the boundaries of knowledge into realms that can neither be understood without some acceptance of revelation and mystery. //
If we accept revelation and mystery, which by its very nature is ... erm ... mysterious ... all we're left with is blind acceptance. There can be no understanding.
My question, which you haven't answered, is intended neither as ridicule or sarcasm. It's simply a logical thought process. If God is omnipotent, then the crucifixion was completely unnecessary and the doctrine of the Christian church is, therefore, nonsense. Furthermore, how anyone can willingly accept, without question, that another should be made to suffer in any way to save the souls of the intellectually needy is quite beyond my comprehension. Where are their principles? If that's the deal, then I'll take my chances with the rest of the self-sufficient in hell because I prefer choose my company on its ethical merits. This malevolent God would never be welcome at my table. Anyone got the corkscrew?
I do hope you stick around, dear Theland. You are missed. Have a custard pie. Sperlatt! :o)
trt, no one knows - but not only can no one prove it - no one can provide the slightest evidence for it.
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