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The visually-challenged God
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From the Koran: "When forty-two nights have passed over the "drops" Allah sends an angel to it' who shapes it and makes its ears, eyes, skin, flesh and bones. Then he says, 0! Lord, is it male or female? and your Lord decides and the angel records it".
So an angel shapes the human foetus, and Allah decides its gender, so why don't either of them notice when a serious error occurs in the handiwork, resulting in a severely handicapped child, conjoined twins, or even an hermaphrodite?
Maybe God's mislaid his glasses.
So an angel shapes the human foetus, and Allah decides its gender, so why don't either of them notice when a serious error occurs in the handiwork, resulting in a severely handicapped child, conjoined twins, or even an hermaphrodite?
Maybe God's mislaid his glasses.
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Keyplus, you say Birdie spreads twisted information about Islam because you refuse to face reality. For example, you continually and emphatically deny that women are considered to be less than men, but I've given you a clear example here that you haven't responded to. I would not be allowed to teach adults, because that must be left to the men. That isn't twisting information. It's true. In Islam women are not considered men's equals. With that example before you, how can you possibly continue to deny it?
Keyplus, I've given you one very clear and indisputable example of the inequality of women in Islam - and I'm waiting for your rational explanation. Why is a woman considered unfit to teach adults?
And, since I've received no answer to my other question, I'll ask again. Why do you want to meet some people here face to face? What purpose do you think that would serve?
Mibs, sperlatt!! :o)
And, since I've received no answer to my other question, I'll ask again. Why do you want to meet some people here face to face? What purpose do you think that would serve?
Mibs, sperlatt!! :o)
i pop out for 5 minutes and we regress to the emdless tiresome bickering of long ago. oh dear.
as i understand it, such things in islam are (or were, because they obvioulsy didn't understand these things when the story was written) considered a 'blessing' from their because the childen born with "serious errors" were automatically granted jannah (entrance to paradise).
part of me suspects that this was in reality handy for infanticide. in fact the sole purpose of it was probably to justify infanticide. but in those days such children would have not lived long due to lack of understanding of symptoms and medication. some were considered special, some were a burden and punishment. that was life then, same for greeks, egyptians, muslims, romans, celts and other ancients.
as i understand it, such things in islam are (or were, because they obvioulsy didn't understand these things when the story was written) considered a 'blessing' from their because the childen born with "serious errors" were automatically granted jannah (entrance to paradise).
part of me suspects that this was in reality handy for infanticide. in fact the sole purpose of it was probably to justify infanticide. but in those days such children would have not lived long due to lack of understanding of symptoms and medication. some were considered special, some were a burden and punishment. that was life then, same for greeks, egyptians, muslims, romans, celts and other ancients.
People believe for many reasons...in many things...maybe as result of sustained socialisation or indoctrination...maybe as a result of a major change in their life which they perceive as in some way mystical or as result of divine intervention... others who claim to believe in nothing believe in their own thoughts and reasoning. Where neither side is prepared to move from their position why continue the debate? And we know how gender is decided and we understand how many abnormalities happen so with Angels and deities out of the equation maybe it is more productive challenging belief and religious dogma on the historical rationales... for example the roles of men and women which evolved at a time when most societies were patriarchal and have yet to be re evaluated in line with the changes to society over recent decades
Naomi - Very simply I can ask that where did you get this that women can't teach adults? Because I have not seen anything in Islam (Quran or Hadith) so if you then let me know and I am sure if it is there then some sort of misconception, out of context scenario would be attached, that no doubt I will clear. But then it comes to next point, when you said,
////keyplus, I've given you one very clear and indisputable example of the inequality of women in Islam////
Because after reading that it tells me old story again that whatever I would give to read you would never accept that as according to you, you have "very Clear and indisputable" example.
About birdie, you have no right to ask. It is between me and him and has to do with his inability to read (what is written here) properly, and to find out that why I always ask him for face to face debate, you may go and look into your archives as I am sure you keep all of the question since day one and have enough time to look into. I don't.
////keyplus, I've given you one very clear and indisputable example of the inequality of women in Islam////
Because after reading that it tells me old story again that whatever I would give to read you would never accept that as according to you, you have "very Clear and indisputable" example.
About birdie, you have no right to ask. It is between me and him and has to do with his inability to read (what is written here) properly, and to find out that why I always ask him for face to face debate, you may go and look into your archives as I am sure you keep all of the question since day one and have enough time to look into. I don't.
Keyplus, you really must read the posts, you know. I've already told you where I got it from - the source is indisputable and there is no misunderstanding. Actually I recall you saying exactly the same here yourself - although I've no doubt whatsoever you'll deny it. Sadly I don't keep all the questions, as you claim, but I'm sure you will remember. Thinking about it, it makes sense though, because if women are commanded to 'lower their gaze' in the presence of men, and to refrain from speaking to men outside their immediately families, which they are, it would be pretty difficult for them to teach a class full of their superiors!
"Qur'an- 4:34 "Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient."
Or perhaps that bit's wrong too?
Asking people with whom you vehemently disagree to meet you face to face is creepy - and if you continually post that sort of invitation on a public forum - which you do - you cannot expect it to remain private. If my reference to it upsets you, so be it. Birdie has told you several times he doesn't want to meet you, and you should accept that.
As you well know, I have never questioned your grammar or your language, so let's dispense with that pathetic old cherry (which rears its head with alarming regularity when you don't have rational answers) right now.
"Qur'an- 4:34 "Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient."
Or perhaps that bit's wrong too?
Asking people with whom you vehemently disagree to meet you face to face is creepy - and if you continually post that sort of invitation on a public forum - which you do - you cannot expect it to remain private. If my reference to it upsets you, so be it. Birdie has told you several times he doesn't want to meet you, and you should accept that.
As you well know, I have never questioned your grammar or your language, so let's dispense with that pathetic old cherry (which rears its head with alarming regularity when you don't have rational answers) right now.
OK lets analyse this, First of all your translation.
"Qur'an- 4:34 "Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient."
Now same verse but with different meanings to specific words,
4:34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard...................
Of course your translation is from a Christian website and is for less than half of the verse. In your translation it says “Superior”, but superior in what sense? So they manipulated a word or simply someone with bad or not adequate abilities to translate a book. Superior is a word which is always used in reference to something. Therefore the translation I have given you tells what Allah has given men that is “superior” than women. And it is physical strength and it refers to the first word used “protector”. We all know that men (in general) are stronger than women. Then of course your translation finishes halfway on a word “obedient” to give another false concept. Arabic word used there is “hafizat” and anyone with basic knowledge about the language knows that it means “guardian” You can read that in my translation. And very simply it refers to guarding their home, kids, and themselves from everything when men are out (to earn living). I am sure your husband would require or at least hope that from you too when he is not there even if he does not spend on you. So these are “advantage” Allah has given to men over women. It has nothing to do with rights as this verse explains.
2:228 And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
"Qur'an- 4:34 "Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient."
Now same verse but with different meanings to specific words,
4:34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard...................
Of course your translation is from a Christian website and is for less than half of the verse. In your translation it says “Superior”, but superior in what sense? So they manipulated a word or simply someone with bad or not adequate abilities to translate a book. Superior is a word which is always used in reference to something. Therefore the translation I have given you tells what Allah has given men that is “superior” than women. And it is physical strength and it refers to the first word used “protector”. We all know that men (in general) are stronger than women. Then of course your translation finishes halfway on a word “obedient” to give another false concept. Arabic word used there is “hafizat” and anyone with basic knowledge about the language knows that it means “guardian” You can read that in my translation. And very simply it refers to guarding their home, kids, and themselves from everything when men are out (to earn living). I am sure your husband would require or at least hope that from you too when he is not there even if he does not spend on you. So these are “advantage” Allah has given to men over women. It has nothing to do with rights as this verse explains.
2:228 And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
Keyplus, Ah, the eternally flexible Koran - but bend it as you will, even in the non-traditional translation you've offered, women must be 'devoutly obedient', which really says it all.
No, my translation didn't come from a Christian website - and yes, I did leave the rest of the verse out because it wasn't relevant to this discussion. However, if you want me to post it I will. It instructs men on how to deal with disobedient wives by casting them from the marital bed to beating them. In fairness it does say that if they then become obedient, no further action should be taken. How kind.
Read my post on this thread Wednesday 23.10.
No, my translation didn't come from a Christian website - and yes, I did leave the rest of the verse out because it wasn't relevant to this discussion. However, if you want me to post it I will. It instructs men on how to deal with disobedient wives by casting them from the marital bed to beating them. In fairness it does say that if they then become obedient, no further action should be taken. How kind.
Read my post on this thread Wednesday 23.10.
Its not flexible Quran. Anyone who translates a book has to be master at both languages. Arabic is probably the most vast language in the world. There are sometimes 8 to 10 different words for same object and so many other issues. Then people who translate, they do so with the influence of their own knowledge plus knowledge present at that time. So translation or interpretation could be wrong or not 100% accurate but that does not make Quran wrong. At least Quran's original language and original Quran both still exists.
As for your other issues, I am sure I can answer those too if you do wish. Otherwise just digest it as it is and accept that people who are in the religion know what perhaps you don't.
OK, in your posts you are talking about Imams from Al – Azhar Mosque and you have called a claim from them “a complete nonsense”. Then why did you believe in their other claims? Only because those claims agreed with your own thoughts?
Next time when you go to Al-Azhar Mosque ask them the proof about what they believe about women and teaching adults. If they can’t give you the “base” on which they have given their opinion then give them this following list of the famous women scholars and then ask them if they only taught children. And then let me know what they said.
http://www.islamfortoday.com/womenscholars.htm
As for your other issues, I am sure I can answer those too if you do wish. Otherwise just digest it as it is and accept that people who are in the religion know what perhaps you don't.
OK, in your posts you are talking about Imams from Al – Azhar Mosque and you have called a claim from them “a complete nonsense”. Then why did you believe in their other claims? Only because those claims agreed with your own thoughts?
Next time when you go to Al-Azhar Mosque ask them the proof about what they believe about women and teaching adults. If they can’t give you the “base” on which they have given their opinion then give them this following list of the famous women scholars and then ask them if they only taught children. And then let me know what they said.
http://www.islamfortoday.com/womenscholars.htm
Keyplus, So are you saying these great men of learning I have spoken to are wrong? Of course the claim that the name of every Muslim in the world is registered there is a complete nonsense - but Islam has a great penchant for blowing its own trumpet, and for taking people - inside and outside of Islam - for fools, and, sadly, these men from this great seat of learning attempt to do exactly that, just as as you do it here. You may not have noticed, but all the women in your example have been dead for hundreds of years, so where are your great women teachers now? I've seen none, but I'd be interested to know if you have because I'd like to speak to them. You bleat on about propaganda, Keyplus, but you're all too eager to embrace the blatant propaganda that emanates from Islam itself. Open your eyes!
And yes, it is a flexible Koran. When it comes to your book a quick google will reveal that it says anything you want it to say - and that has been demonstrated here many times. Your so-called scholars write page after page, twisting and turning the words in an attempt to bring some sort of veracity to the demonstrably inaccurate science of the Koran - and you jump on their nonsense with mind-boggling eagerness because you think they might have an answer that will confirm your beliefs to be correct. Well, I can tell you they don't!! Do yourself a favour and take re-possession of the intellect you think Allah gave you. Other men have no more information at their disposal than you do, so why do you assume they know more? They don't - and that's another fact!
And yes, it is a flexible Koran. When it comes to your book a quick google will reveal that it says anything you want it to say - and that has been demonstrated here many times. Your so-called scholars write page after page, twisting and turning the words in an attempt to bring some sort of veracity to the demonstrably inaccurate science of the Koran - and you jump on their nonsense with mind-boggling eagerness because you think they might have an answer that will confirm your beliefs to be correct. Well, I can tell you they don't!! Do yourself a favour and take re-possession of the intellect you think Allah gave you. Other men have no more information at their disposal than you do, so why do you assume they know more? They don't - and that's another fact!
Keyplus:
You say, “... About birdie, you have no right to ask. It is between me and him and has to do with his inability to read (what is written here) properly, and to find out that why I always ask him for face to face debate...”
To Naomi & Keyplus – I hearby give Naomi the right to ask on my behalf why Keyplus consistently asks me for a face to face debate.
Keyplus – You claim to be asking me for a face to face debate because you believe that I am incapable of reading and understanding your answers. This is disingenuous and you know it. We both know why you want to meet me – you're just too cowardly to admit it on a public forum.
I have understood all of your answers to date even if many of them completely fail to address the matter being discussed. The fact that I do not agree with your misogynistic, anachronistic, misanthropic and venal posts does not demonstrate a lack of understanding on my part. Your insistence upon wishing to meet me in person shows a very worrying side to your character and don't think for one minute that other people on this website can't see that.
You say, “... About birdie, you have no right to ask. It is between me and him and has to do with his inability to read (what is written here) properly, and to find out that why I always ask him for face to face debate...”
To Naomi & Keyplus – I hearby give Naomi the right to ask on my behalf why Keyplus consistently asks me for a face to face debate.
Keyplus – You claim to be asking me for a face to face debate because you believe that I am incapable of reading and understanding your answers. This is disingenuous and you know it. We both know why you want to meet me – you're just too cowardly to admit it on a public forum.
I have understood all of your answers to date even if many of them completely fail to address the matter being discussed. The fact that I do not agree with your misogynistic, anachronistic, misanthropic and venal posts does not demonstrate a lack of understanding on my part. Your insistence upon wishing to meet me in person shows a very worrying side to your character and don't think for one minute that other people on this website can't see that.
Keyplus - “... So translation or interpretation could be wrong or not 100% accurate but that does not make Quran wrong. At least Quran's original language and original Quran both still exists...”
Your above statement just goes to demonstrate why religion is so bad for the individual's capacity for rational thought. Even though you freely admit that the 'interpretation' of the Quran may not be entirely accurate, you still believe in it one hundred percent. This is the very definition of self delusion – on the one hand to know, be aware and admit that something is wrong or possibly wrong and on the other hand, to believe in its veracity without question and to hold it up as an ultimate truth.
I also fail to see why you seem to think that the physical existence of the Quran adds weight to your argument. Many ludicrous books, written by sociopaths, are still in existence; one that springs to mind is, “The Little Green Book” by the Ayatollah Khomeini. This book is very much in existence and is widely regarded (even by muslims) as the rantings of a lunatic.
The existence of a book does not add credence to the views of the author nor does it validate their world-view.
Your above statement just goes to demonstrate why religion is so bad for the individual's capacity for rational thought. Even though you freely admit that the 'interpretation' of the Quran may not be entirely accurate, you still believe in it one hundred percent. This is the very definition of self delusion – on the one hand to know, be aware and admit that something is wrong or possibly wrong and on the other hand, to believe in its veracity without question and to hold it up as an ultimate truth.
I also fail to see why you seem to think that the physical existence of the Quran adds weight to your argument. Many ludicrous books, written by sociopaths, are still in existence; one that springs to mind is, “The Little Green Book” by the Ayatollah Khomeini. This book is very much in existence and is widely regarded (even by muslims) as the rantings of a lunatic.
The existence of a book does not add credence to the views of the author nor does it validate their world-view.
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