Socialism, Can It Ever Work?

[ToraToraTora]

Despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary why do so many, often appearing intelligent, people still believe that socialism can work? Perhaps those that do can explain the mechanisms by which they think it could. Thanks.

[zebo]

Voting is very entrenched in a lot of places, I used to say that a goat with a red ribbon round it's neck would get elected in my part of the NW. My parents always voted Labour yet my mother, who was the more politically astute, detested most of what they stood for! They, my parents, were working class in that they always worked, they heartily detested those who made no effort to work and were glad to live off others. I once told my mother that she had more in common with Mrs T than anyone else, she was furious but it was true.

[Hopkirk]

As Maggie Thatcher apparently said, the trouble with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money.

[vetuste_ennemi]

// A lot depends on what you mean by working. After all, (state) pensions are a fairly socialist principle, as are the NHS, sickness benefits, etc etc. Certainly no purely capitalist system would conceive of a state-provided health service, free for all at the point of use//

Capitalism has nothing to do with a welfare state. It's a mechanism for producing wealth. Western style socialism in its normal and recent political expressions is about useful ("just") [re-]distribution of capitalism's economic benefits to its client class.

[naomi24]

zebo, I can relate to that. I have friends, Labour ingrained in them by their parents, who would never vote anything but Labour - and yet their lifestyle and their aspirations belie everything that Labour professes to represent. Potty.

[jim360]

Since the NHS basically loses money, pretty sure it ain't making any wealth: ergo, I *still* doubt a purely capitalist model would come up with it.

I'm not wanting to live in a socialist utopia either, but there's no harm in acknowledging that socialist ideals, when taken in moderation, benefit society rather than hinder it.

[vetuste_ennemi]

You're conflating moral ideas with political policy, Jim.

If "socialism" means we all want to see all of out fellow citizens benefitting from the general wealth then even I am a red.

[vetuste_ennemi]

But it's abou achieving that largesse in the first place.

Chavez?

Much admired by idiots like Livingstone. And Corbyn.

That won't embarrass you, but the fact that your role model and the left's greatest hypocrite Noam Chomsky supported him should.

[Khandro]

Moving away from Glasgow (I won't say it :0) Hugo Chavez, whom Corbyn hailed as an "inspiration to us all". Venezuela with its abundant resources was potentially the richest country in South America, it had, when he came to power, 48% of its households living in poverty and now the figure is 82%. and its infant mortality rate has increased by 30%.

Some "inspiration"!

[cassa333]

The wealth of the nation, what it generates in taxes, duties and investments, is different to personal wealth.

I tend to agree with Jim’s second (and probably first) paragraph @ 9.12.

Socialist ideals are great in moderation. Help for the most vulnerable, equal care for all etc but it has to build into that resilience.

We are, or at least becoming, a nation with our hand out waiting to be handed everything on a plate. Most vulnerable has morphed into a Goliath and is everything to everyone, people want a lifestyle that is equal to hardworking people without the effort of working. That needs to change.

[naomi24]

Jim, the NHS wasn’t a socialist ideal. It began with a report, authored by a Liberal economist, on reforms to social care which was subsequently adopted by the Conservative party and incorporated as a plan for free health care for all into its 1945 manifesto. The myth that it was a Labour ideal is reminiscent of the myth that Mrs Thatcher closed all the mines, when in fact Labour closed far more. Another unsavoury truth but the truth nonetheless.

[Khandro]

^^ Yes the then administration of Britain was conservative led, and it was Winston Churchill who gave Ernest Bevan the brief to begin the foundation of the NHS

[Khandro]

It became a country with a National Health Service attached, now it's becoming a NHS, with a country attached.

[bainbrig]

A bit like someone at a National Front meeting jumping up and shouting “Do we want more immigration, brothers and sisters?”

So no, I shan’t be treading in this particular lump.

[naomi24]

bainbrig, //Despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary why do so many, often appearing intelligent, people still believe that socialism can work? Perhaps those that do can explain the mechanisms by which they think it could. //

^That's the question and to people like you who bang on about the wonders of socialism, it's a fair one. I can only assume that, metaphorically speaking, you're not prepared to put your money where your mouth is.

[Theland]

Question Author
Capitalism is alive and well at the lower reaches of our society.
"Work pays and gets you out of poverty." Low wages, zero hours contracts, food banks, benefits frozen or suspended, kids going to bed hungry.
But Socialism is alive and well. The greedy banks runout of money, and the whole nation make tremendous sacrifices to fund them back into business, with obscene salaries a and bonuses. NOBODY WENT TO PRISON!
"Fred The Shred Godwin," kept his cash and his freedom, and only lost his Knighthood. A great Socialist. The many helping the few, (bankers.) 20:45 Tue 13th Nov 2018

[Theland]

A simple question - What do YOU propose should be done to stop kids going to bed hungry?

[naomi24]

Theland, What a drama queen you are! Who are all these children who are going to bed hungry? Where are they?

[waterboatman]

Socialism. Everyone equal. Can never work because there always has to be someone in charge.

[Deskdiary]

Socialism is something that doesn't apply to those who preach it. Funny that.
,
Jeremy Corbyn - anybody who earns over £80,000 is rich.

Jeremy Corbyn - on £140,000 and stated he wasn't rich.

[Khandro]

The only people going to bed hungry are the well-off trying to loose weight!