Would you like to see the return of Grammar Schools?

[naomi24]

As an ex-Grammar School girl, I've just watched with great interest a programme on the demise of Grammar Schools and the loss of opportunity that resulted in for bright working class children.

Quote from Edwina Curry who came from a working class background but won a scholarship to a Grammar School and subsequently went on to Cambridge -

'I may be a Tory but I'm a Scouse Tory, and to have a country where only money buys a good education is deeply, deeply wrong'.

Your thoughts?

[joggerjayne]

d9 ... isn't that because, at some schools, there are pupils who don't want to be there, and whose falilies are not bothered?

Maybe the answer is to have a "lower" tier of schools for families who attach no significance to academic education, and where the pupils learn more "practical" skills?

And maybe ALL head teachers should have the power to call parents in, and tell them that their child has to leave the school.

[joggerjayne]

families

[Canary42]

Based on the grammar school I attended - NO NO NO.

[overthetop]

Canary, what was so wrong with your grammar school?

[LazyGun]

D9- it's the sweeping generalisations I object to- that and the demonisation of an alternative view- and what you have presented so far is anecdote and opinion.
Are there problems with the existing system? Yes
Do grammar schools offer a more rigorous academic environment? Probably
Are grammar schools the answer for state education? No

[SueMoneyRowley]

Can a pupil gain a University place,while studying at a Comprehensive...do they study to "A"level?

Zukov,My Comprehensive school had a sixth form and many pupils went to to university, some even to Oxbridge but that was in the sixties. Most sixth forms (but not all) went during the 1980s, and pupils then attended the local college to do 'A' levels. The ethos and atmosphere at colleges is quite different to that of the sixth form. I enjoyed my time in the sixth form, and regret that my daughter who was academically very able was not able to have the sixth form experience, although I'm not sure she would agree with me!

[woofgang]

I think that the comprehensive schools who do well now "stream" their pupils so what is the difference between that and streaming by attending different schools?
All three of us passed the 11 plus and went to grammar school. At the time (1950's -60's) it was the way out of working poverty. We didn't get free school meals (just) but there were folks in the school who did but it was done tactfully so i couldn't say for sure how many, we did get uniform grant.
I don't think it matters whether you call them streams, academies grammar schools or whatever provided that children get the education they need and can use.
Even now catchment areas for good schools are what make house price differences here in Hampshire. At least with a selection process, you can't "buy" your way into better state education.

[SueMoneyRowley]

Well said woofgang!

[naomi24]

I know people from Comprehensive schools who have made very successful careers for themselves, but I also know people who have achieved far less than their potential because their talents have been neglected. As a child from a working class background, there was no way my parents could have paid for my education, and therefore I will be eternally grateful for having been given the best that any state could offer. I agree with Edwina Currie. It makes me very sad to see brains wasted.

[bigbadmarty]

Hi Naomi - just because an individual lacks a good education does not mean that they have "wasted" their "brains" . I think someone with cunning or heightened deductive powers will always find an outlet for his/her talents - be they a barrack-room lawyer , racing analyst or local folklore historian etc. I've met plenty of bright people like these who use their agile minds to their own advantage and that of their family and friends :)

[naomi24]

Hi Marty. :o)

I know what you're saying - and you're right - but unfortunately there are many who don't have the personality, the confidence, or the skill to do that.

[seadogg]

A school with a good ethos (which often means a good senior staff and head) is able to do a great deal to compensate for the inadequate backgrounds of some of its pupils. If such a school is to have maximum impact it needs a broad intake. As an examiner I visited many schools and it was amazing how a good school in an unpromising area could maintain high standards.

[DTCwordfan]

Agree with seadogg - and make it a generic comment to any education:

//A school with a good ethos (which often means a good senior staff and head)//

(also read University and replace head with Profs/Deans/Chancellor).

[atalanta]

The trouble with the 11-plus which has been forgotten ( deliberately ??) was that far more than half the children who got Grammar-school-standard marks were girls, but boys were preferred, so lots of dim boys got into grammar schools while clever girls were downgraded.

[woofgang]

How can that be when many of the schools were single sex?

[jno]

perhaps that's the explanation, woofgang: if there are equal numbers of places for boys and girls (which may have been nothing like the case, of course), then the boys' schools will fill up with dim boys while the girls' schools will be excluding bright girls?

[boxtops]

The eleven plus isn't forgotten - we might call it something different, but we still have it (and grammar schools) here in Kent. I went to grammar and I'd fight to keep them - I never felt I was in the elite, but I was one of only 4 in my year who didn't go on to uni.

[seadogg]

Absolutely atalanta. Mrs S went to a girl's grammar with a 2 form intake while my GS had a 4 form intake. The 4th stream had a reputation for being, in the words of one master "a set of un house trained apes." Meanwhile girls of higher calibre went to sec mod.

[woofgang]

I take your point jno but how can that work? If you lower the pass mark then more boys AND girls will pass, yes you will get dim boys getting grammar school places and if there are less places for girls than boys then smart girls will lose out but Atalanta implies that the marking was somehow fiddled?

[David H]

The fact that the public school system still exists and continues to prove that selective education works, gets the best results, university places and jobs means that rather than now be restricted to those who can afford it such a system should be available for all, much like the NHS is now. Why should the best schools now mean they only cater to generations of the same families where many others could have qualified had they been given the chance free. They have a handful of scholarships but only the exception.