Does My Bum Look Bigger In These?
ChatterBank0 min ago
Why Is Russia And Putin In Particular Being Held Responsible For This Horrible Crime.
64 Answers
The headlines being banded about by the Western media such as
"Russians did it! Putin's rebels BLEW UP MH17 plane"
"Is this the moment Russians prepared to fire a missile at flight MH17?"
"Time to confess, Putin"
"Pro-Russian looters"
"Armed Russian rebels"
"'This baby's death is on your conscience, Putin"
"Russian gangsters killed our loved ones"
"Britain and America implicate Russia in Flight MH17 missile attack"
If it was indeed the UKRAINE rebels who committed this crime, (and nothing has so far been proven) how can Putin or his Russian people be held responsible for the actions of a few madmen?
If it is proven that it was the Ukrainians themselves who are responsible, will we ever be told, and if we are, this would be a huge egg in the faces of the Western politicians and our media.
And this is in no way an anti British rant, or even pro-Russian, it is simply a relevant question.
"Russians did it! Putin's rebels BLEW UP MH17 plane"
"Is this the moment Russians prepared to fire a missile at flight MH17?"
"Time to confess, Putin"
"Pro-Russian looters"
"Armed Russian rebels"
"'This baby's death is on your conscience, Putin"
"Russian gangsters killed our loved ones"
"Britain and America implicate Russia in Flight MH17 missile attack"
If it was indeed the UKRAINE rebels who committed this crime, (and nothing has so far been proven) how can Putin or his Russian people be held responsible for the actions of a few madmen?
If it is proven that it was the Ukrainians themselves who are responsible, will we ever be told, and if we are, this would be a huge egg in the faces of the Western politicians and our media.
And this is in no way an anti British rant, or even pro-Russian, it is simply a relevant question.
Answers
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Independent:
The United States told an emergency session of the UN Security Council today that it had early indications that the missile that destroyed Malaysian Airlines 17 on Thursday originated from inside territory controlled by separatists in eastern Ukraine and that it couldn’t rule out that Russian personnel had assisted in its firing.
It is suspected that Russian backed separatists were behind it.
“Russian officials have claimed that armed separatists in Eastern Ukraine represent a spontaneous local insurgency. We know that this is not the case,” remarked British ambassador Sir Mark Lyall Grant. “The United Kingdom urges Russia to reflect carefully on the situation they have created.”
The Sa11 is a technical beast and it is suspected that Russian technicians would have been needed to fire it.
The United States told an emergency session of the UN Security Council today that it had early indications that the missile that destroyed Malaysian Airlines 17 on Thursday originated from inside territory controlled by separatists in eastern Ukraine and that it couldn’t rule out that Russian personnel had assisted in its firing.
It is suspected that Russian backed separatists were behind it.
“Russian officials have claimed that armed separatists in Eastern Ukraine represent a spontaneous local insurgency. We know that this is not the case,” remarked British ambassador Sir Mark Lyall Grant. “The United Kingdom urges Russia to reflect carefully on the situation they have created.”
The Sa11 is a technical beast and it is suspected that Russian technicians would have been needed to fire it.
"If it was indeed the UKRAINE rebels who committed this crime, (and nothing has so far been proven) how can Putin or his Russian people be held responsible for the actions of a few madmen?"
Perhaps you should read up a bit about the background to this subject before asking questions like this. I know this is "Answerbank" but honestly :-)
Perhaps you should read up a bit about the background to this subject before asking questions like this. I know this is "Answerbank" but honestly :-)
"What sane person could believe that Vladimir Putin would sanction, or want to shoot down a passenger plane and kill 300 innocent people?
No one is saying he did. Although I've not been reading the stories beneath AOGs lurid headlines so maybe some tabloid trash is I don't know
Mind you, as Prime Minister in 1999 he almost certainly DID sanction the bombing of apartment blocks in Russia, killing hundreds, to justify starting a war in Chechnya. He'd have killed even more had the FSB not been caught "red"-handed planting one of the bombs
No one is saying he did. Although I've not been reading the stories beneath AOGs lurid headlines so maybe some tabloid trash is I don't know
Mind you, as Prime Minister in 1999 he almost certainly DID sanction the bombing of apartment blocks in Russia, killing hundreds, to justify starting a war in Chechnya. He'd have killed even more had the FSB not been caught "red"-handed planting one of the bombs
This is going from bad to worse. There are nearly 300 bodies of completely innocent people lying around at the crash site, in high summer temperatures. Putin should pull his flipping finger out and tell the rebels to get out of the area and let proper crash investigators in to sort this mess out.
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The sad fact, Mikey, is that Putin is an accomplice in the crime. Far from doing what you say, which of course he should, the terrorists probably have orders from Moscow to do what they can to make it difficult quickly to gain access. It's an odd situation. When a plane crashes it isn't normally those who brought it down who are among the first to the crash scene.
We know from SBU (Ukrainian MI5) intercepts that the "rebels" are in constant contact with the GRU of the Russian armed forces, which doesn't really have an equivalent in Britain, but is sort of a cross between Army Signal Corps, paratroopers and GCHQ.
We know from SBU (Ukrainian MI5) intercepts that the "rebels" are in constant contact with the GRU of the Russian armed forces, which doesn't really have an equivalent in Britain, but is sort of a cross between Army Signal Corps, paratroopers and GCHQ.
The evidence seems to point at the separatist rebels. There is a recording of their commanders at first bragging about downing a Ukrainian transport plane, but only a civilian plane was blown up.
The suspicion is that the rebels could not have operated the missile launcher on their own because it is a very complicated piece of kit. It is a Russian built device, and Russia trains people how to work it. If the rebels were not themselves operating the launcher, it seems highly likely that embedded Russian troops were. Which is why the finger is pointing at Putin in Moscow.
The conflict in Ukraine was due to the EU courting the country. The EU, ever determined to enlarge, enticed Ukraine to start the process of joining. When the Soviet Union collapsed part of the deal with the former Soviet countries was that they did not 'join the enemy'. It wasn't long however before NATO and the EU began to woo the former Soviet states. Ukraine was a step too far, having many Russians living there and being a huge supplier of Russia's food. So Moscow started to support the anti-EU, anti-west side in Ukraine. Moscow would have been OK with Ukraine signing trade deals with the EU, but the EU wanted full membership from them, which Russia was against.
The suspicion is that the rebels could not have operated the missile launcher on their own because it is a very complicated piece of kit. It is a Russian built device, and Russia trains people how to work it. If the rebels were not themselves operating the launcher, it seems highly likely that embedded Russian troops were. Which is why the finger is pointing at Putin in Moscow.
The conflict in Ukraine was due to the EU courting the country. The EU, ever determined to enlarge, enticed Ukraine to start the process of joining. When the Soviet Union collapsed part of the deal with the former Soviet countries was that they did not 'join the enemy'. It wasn't long however before NATO and the EU began to woo the former Soviet states. Ukraine was a step too far, having many Russians living there and being a huge supplier of Russia's food. So Moscow started to support the anti-EU, anti-west side in Ukraine. Moscow would have been OK with Ukraine signing trade deals with the EU, but the EU wanted full membership from them, which Russia was against.
//Intercepted call suggests rebels to blame//
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RandyMarsh
/// If his gov provided the tech that brought down the plane then he has to shoulder some of the blame. ///
Crikey al the world's arms dealers have some blame to carry on their shoulders then?
Or China has to shoulder the blame if one of their fireworks injure someone?
Or the gun shop who sold a shotgun to a farmer and that farmer shot someone?
/// If his gov provided the tech that brought down the plane then he has to shoulder some of the blame. ///
Crikey al the world's arms dealers have some blame to carry on their shoulders then?
Or China has to shoulder the blame if one of their fireworks injure someone?
Or the gun shop who sold a shotgun to a farmer and that farmer shot someone?
// This missile system can only have been provided by and from Russia. //
// If you give SA-18 IGLA missile systems to taxi drivers, plumbers and call center workers then there will be incidents like this. //
On 29 June the rebels tweeted that they had captured a BUK launcher from the Ukrainian Government forces. It is possible they also captured the personnel who were trained to fire it.
No one disputes that the Russians are supporting the separatists, but there is not any evidence they supplied the launcher to the rebels. Blaming Putin seems premature, especially when the EU were instrumental in starting the conflict.
// If you give SA-18 IGLA missile systems to taxi drivers, plumbers and call center workers then there will be incidents like this. //
On 29 June the rebels tweeted that they had captured a BUK launcher from the Ukrainian Government forces. It is possible they also captured the personnel who were trained to fire it.
No one disputes that the Russians are supporting the separatists, but there is not any evidence they supplied the launcher to the rebels. Blaming Putin seems premature, especially when the EU were instrumental in starting the conflict.
hanks for that naomi24 most interesting and it confirms more or less what Gromit stated, but still nothing is certain considering the source.
/// The video, released by the Ukraine Secret Service but not independently verified, suggests Pro-Russia rebels are to blame for the downing of Malaysia Airlines MH17 ///
/// The video, released by the Ukraine Secret Service but not independently verified, suggests Pro-Russia rebels are to blame for the downing of Malaysia Airlines MH17 ///
Daily Telegraph
// According to The Telegraph, the DPR also posted a Twitter picture of a missile system that it captured when it overran a Ukrainian army garrison on June 29.
A spokesman told Voice of Russia radio at the time: “The forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic assumed control of A-1402 (regiment’s) military base” and boasted of capturing the Buk launcher. //
Questions need to be asked of the CAA, as to why, after it was known the rebels had captured a missile system with a range of 70,000 feet, did they permit civilian airliners to fly at half that height after 29th June. Did they not know the rebels had the missiles? If not, why not? Or did they not realise the significance of the development in relation to safety of aircraft?
// According to The Telegraph, the DPR also posted a Twitter picture of a missile system that it captured when it overran a Ukrainian army garrison on June 29.
A spokesman told Voice of Russia radio at the time: “The forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic assumed control of A-1402 (regiment’s) military base” and boasted of capturing the Buk launcher. //
Questions need to be asked of the CAA, as to why, after it was known the rebels had captured a missile system with a range of 70,000 feet, did they permit civilian airliners to fly at half that height after 29th June. Did they not know the rebels had the missiles? If not, why not? Or did they not realise the significance of the development in relation to safety of aircraft?
RandyMarsh
/// If his gov provided the tech that brought down the plane then he has to shoulder some of the blame. ///
Then all the world's arms dealers and arms manufactures must also have to shoulder the blame for all the deaths that have accrued in all the conflicts past and present around the world?
Should we blame the gun shop who sold a farmer a shotgun, which he later used to kill someone?
Or even more extreme should we blame China for the manufacture of fireworks which later caused an injury to someone?
/// If his gov provided the tech that brought down the plane then he has to shoulder some of the blame. ///
Then all the world's arms dealers and arms manufactures must also have to shoulder the blame for all the deaths that have accrued in all the conflicts past and present around the world?
Should we blame the gun shop who sold a farmer a shotgun, which he later used to kill someone?
Or even more extreme should we blame China for the manufacture of fireworks which later caused an injury to someone?
Gromit it is nonsensical, even outrageous, effectively to blame the EU for the conflict in Ukraine. Closer ties with the west are what the majority of people in Ukraine want, not because they love the EU, Mr Juncker, Brussels, Strasbourg or any of that, but because they are attracted by many of the standards the EU demand of countries which want to join it.
This includes things like a fair judiciary, not the basket case of a justice system which has existed hitherto, where "justice" depends on how much you bribe a judge. Moscow was able successfully to scare the criminal ex-president Yanukovych away from the EU deal because the pointed out to him, rightly, that yes, he could embezzle billions of dollars of the hand out money, but he'd have to front up on corruption and cronyism. An irreconcilable dilemma.
So if you really want to deflect the blame from Russia for more or less 100% of what has happened since (and good luck with that) then blame the students, lawyers etc of the Maidan movement who took on a corrupt government and won.
This includes things like a fair judiciary, not the basket case of a justice system which has existed hitherto, where "justice" depends on how much you bribe a judge. Moscow was able successfully to scare the criminal ex-president Yanukovych away from the EU deal because the pointed out to him, rightly, that yes, he could embezzle billions of dollars of the hand out money, but he'd have to front up on corruption and cronyism. An irreconcilable dilemma.
So if you really want to deflect the blame from Russia for more or less 100% of what has happened since (and good luck with that) then blame the students, lawyers etc of the Maidan movement who took on a corrupt government and won.
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