If An Ordinary American Citizen Faced...
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Waterboarding
If we assume, for the sake of the argument, that George Bush is telling the truth in his memoirs where he says the use of waterboarding prevented a number of terrorist attacks, including attacks on Canary Wharf and Heathrow, then the ends justify the means, don't they?
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No the ends do NOT justify the means- if you torture people you become as bad if not worse than they are whoever they are- so you lose your integrity and if you can't be relied upon to make good decisions then no wonder that person is opposing you in the first place- it's a self fulfilling prophecy.
I just cannot understand why we have to self flagellate ourselves all the time, with talk about if we do the same as the enemy, then we are no better than them, who cares?
Why, back in the middle ages the English long-bow archer would not at first use the cross-bow, they said it was more accurate than the long-bow, so therefore it was a little unfair to use it, against one's enemy.
Anything one can bring to quicken the end of hostilities the better and if that means using a mild form of torture so as to gain valuable information, then so be it.
War is a dirty game, and in some cases cannot be played to a set of rules, why should we be the good guys all the time, it is them who get their faces pushed into the sand.
Why, back in the middle ages the English long-bow archer would not at first use the cross-bow, they said it was more accurate than the long-bow, so therefore it was a little unfair to use it, against one's enemy.
Anything one can bring to quicken the end of hostilities the better and if that means using a mild form of torture so as to gain valuable information, then so be it.
War is a dirty game, and in some cases cannot be played to a set of rules, why should we be the good guys all the time, it is them who get their faces pushed into the sand.
I fully appreciate that your stance is in line with your stated approach to conflict AOG - and equally i am sure you will appreciate that mine is to disagree utterly.
I do concur that an end to hostilities is desireable, and in fact essential, but to suggest that it be by any means possible is surely not what we can accept as a civilised democracy.
If that were the case, then we can simply subject the nations of Afghanistan, and more pertinently in terms of terrorist headquarters, we need to deal with Yemen and Pakistan - then a few nuclear missiles will sort the whole thing out and - to use the reptillian Bush's downhome phraseology which I find so chilling - we can 'get the job done'.
Oh Lord, i hope not.
I do concur that an end to hostilities is desireable, and in fact essential, but to suggest that it be by any means possible is surely not what we can accept as a civilised democracy.
If that were the case, then we can simply subject the nations of Afghanistan, and more pertinently in terms of terrorist headquarters, we need to deal with Yemen and Pakistan - then a few nuclear missiles will sort the whole thing out and - to use the reptillian Bush's downhome phraseology which I find so chilling - we can 'get the job done'.
Oh Lord, i hope not.
All this emotional talk about medieval reptilian levels of torture and the London Dungeon .
Is that the only way you can further your beliefs ? You know full well that not a single victim or informer has claimed that has happened. So why trot it out it does not futher your cause .
The worst that has been claimed is the use of waterboarding. Of course torture of any kind is abhorrent but the question is, are there circumstances where it is justified and gave examples where it is. You may not, but I would do anything to save the lives of the innocent .
You remind me of the conscientious objecters in the last war who allowed atrocities to happen because they personally couldn't fire in anger.
Is that the only way you can further your beliefs ? You know full well that not a single victim or informer has claimed that has happened. So why trot it out it does not futher your cause .
The worst that has been claimed is the use of waterboarding. Of course torture of any kind is abhorrent but the question is, are there circumstances where it is justified and gave examples where it is. You may not, but I would do anything to save the lives of the innocent .
You remind me of the conscientious objecters in the last war who allowed atrocities to happen because they personally couldn't fire in anger.
Modeller, conscientious objector I am not.
Furthermore people have died under torture (Baha Moussa) and that's just what we got to know of.
There are reports of voalition forces shooting people "for sport", I am dubious of this claim as I know of some of the field tactics being used, to the casual observer it may well seem that way.
Naomi, yawn, bait and switch from the person who says there's others in this thread and not wanting to get into a personal argument, you're such a hypocrite and ever so predictable.
Furthermore people have died under torture (Baha Moussa) and that's just what we got to know of.
There are reports of voalition forces shooting people "for sport", I am dubious of this claim as I know of some of the field tactics being used, to the casual observer it may well seem that way.
Naomi, yawn, bait and switch from the person who says there's others in this thread and not wanting to get into a personal argument, you're such a hypocrite and ever so predictable.
You evaded a question, and when asked again you took your bat and ball home saying that you didn't want to get involved in a personal argument.
The fact that you ducked the question proved the point I was making, so I left it, bear in mind you troll about the site asking Keyplus to answer questions on other threads "that require his attention" this is typical of your own double standard, hypocrisy and inconsistency.
Furthermore there's nothing inconsistent with my views, I don't view Muslims as backward and barbaric (I object to those adjectives) any more than I view us in the west as being civilised and cultured etc.
I've always said that we are no better than them, no creed, colour or race is better than anyone.
So to sum up, now that I have your attention, given that you view torture as an end which suits the means, perhaps you could say quite how a civilised, modern, cultured, reasonable and rational people, ruled by just laws can justify torture?
The fact that you ducked the question proved the point I was making, so I left it, bear in mind you troll about the site asking Keyplus to answer questions on other threads "that require his attention" this is typical of your own double standard, hypocrisy and inconsistency.
Furthermore there's nothing inconsistent with my views, I don't view Muslims as backward and barbaric (I object to those adjectives) any more than I view us in the west as being civilised and cultured etc.
I've always said that we are no better than them, no creed, colour or race is better than anyone.
So to sum up, now that I have your attention, given that you view torture as an end which suits the means, perhaps you could say quite how a civilised, modern, cultured, reasonable and rational people, ruled by just laws can justify torture?
What on earth are you talking about Everton? How can you expect evidence from a hypothetical situation? I tried to stop you hijacking this thread earlier, just as I tried to stop others from leading it off course in the beginning, so let this be an end to it. There are other people contributing here who, amid your nonsense, will not be able to get a word in edgeways - as usual.
It's unlikely that torture has ever stopped a ticking bomb. It might provide background information, but that could have been obtained by conventional methods of interrogation.
Bush was told that waterboarding wasn't torture. He was probably told that its use had prevented attacks on Heathrow and Canary Wharf.
It seems he'd believe anything.
Bush was told that waterboarding wasn't torture. He was probably told that its use had prevented attacks on Heathrow and Canary Wharf.
It seems he'd believe anything.
