Surely Boris Has To Go Now?

[diddlydo]

Who is sticking up for Boris now? None of the papers as far as I can see.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/01/zero-shame-how-the-papers-covered-anger-at-boris-johnson-over-sue-gray-report

[jim360]

Why is the accusation that all politicians are equally liars any defence? Shouldn't we demand, and expect, higher standards from our leaders?

[pixie374]

No, never have and never will happen. And it's a defence against replacing him, with somebody with the same faults, but no strengths, which is what we usually get.
His job was to work out the safest and best advice for the whole population, in a pandemic. I didn't agree with it all, but I think he did his job.

[jim360]

There have, presumably, been Prime Ministers and politicians who aren't constant liars. Even granting that politics requires some level of intrigue, there are standards within it. It's weird to me to argue, in effect, that such standards are unattainable, or that it isn't even worth trying.

[Ellipsis]

> That answer wouldn’t cut it in reality I’m afraid.

I very much hope you're right. If it's shown that he told a bare-faced lie to Parliament (which I believe he did) and he's allowed to get away with it, we're all done for.

[pixie374]

They were parties... that's all. The whole system is corrupt and the only real way to change it, is to introduce some democracy, rather than the one and a half party system we have. Otherwise, it's the best of the worst.
Who would you want in, Jim? And what difference would they make?

[Spungle]

Who cares what the media think?

[Ellipsis]

> They were parties... that's all.

It's not the parties, it's the lies.

[jim360]

// They were parties... that's all.//

As I said before, the parties are much less relevant than the denials. Even setting aside the basic principle that those who make the rules should clearly follow the rules, denying repeatedly that said parties took place is a far more serious issue than the parties themselves.

This doesn't address your final question, but at a basic level I'd like to see someone in charge whose policies I may disagree with but whose basic decency as a human being is not in question. I don't accept that there is no such politician, either in the Tories or any other party.

[THECORBYLOON]

Regarding publishing the report in full, I watched the PM giving his statement. Fellow Tory, Mark Harper, asked if he would commit to publishing the final report in full.

I have listened to it again and his response concluded with, "people have given all sorts of evidence in the expectation it would not necessarily be published, Mr Speaker. At that stage I will take a decision about what to publish, Mr Speaker."

Unless there were a legally binding agreement not to publish their evidence, why would folk jump to the conclusion it would not be?

[Ellipsis]

> Who would you want in, Jim? And what difference would they make?

Literally any other Tory MP, that's their call. And the difference it makes is that it shows you lose your job as PM if you lie to Parliament.

[pixie374]

I do, Jim...the kind of people who "want" to attempt to run a country, or in a position to, are already removed from "most" people. Ellipsis, that's what I'm saying- everyone lies. That's just a question of what about.

[ichkeria]

So if Johnson does have to come clean he’s going to stand up in Parliament and say:
“Ok, I lied but let’s face it all of us are liars so it doesn’t matter”

?

That was what I meant when I said that argument doesn’t cut it in reality

[pixie374]

Ich, if he had deliberately lied about covid... I would fully agree, as that affects other people. Or Brexit, likewise. A party at his... makes no difference to anybody else. So, as lying politicians go... whatever.

[jim360]

That's fine, but the rest of us aren't obliged to match your low standards. Deliberately misleading Parliament, on any issue, is regarded seriously and should remain serious.

There's also a certain contradiction in arguing that lying about parties isn't serious, because the parties weren't serious, when if that was a case there was no need to lie in the first place. This is the point of honesty. Being open about the mistake would have killed the issue very quickly, in the eyes of the public (or at least most of them).

[Ellipsis]

> everyone lies. That's just a question of what about.

There's a big difference between "everyone lies all of the time" and "everyone lies sometimes".

So when it comes to the question of "what about", when you're PM, you don't lie to Parliament. If you do, and you're found out, you go in disgrace.

That it was over something apparently so minor as parties is immaterial, in fact it almost makes it worse.

[pixie374]

True. And I don't have low standards, btw. Dishonesty is the worst crime in my view. But- with the system we have, I have no idea what people are expecting. After everything he has achieved with vaccines etc. They are talking about parties.

[naomi24]

Boris is a decent human being. He makes mistakes and misjudgments, but he's been presented with an unprecedented task and he's worked damned hard. In his situation if I was asked about illegal parties at Downing Street I too would deny them because I don’t consider work colleagues having a glass of wine together at work to be illegal at all. I regard this purposefully whipped-up hysteria as a complete nonsense designed wholly to create discord and to bring the Prime Minister down. Perhaps Boris thinks the same - and that doesn't make him a liar.

[ichkeria]

But the alleged party was .. a party.

Indoors.

Possible to celebrate the end of Cummings (!)

[Stickybottle]

pixie374
True. And I don't have low standards, btw. Dishonesty is the worst crime in my view. But- with the system we have, I have no idea what people are expecting.
———
Probably and reasonably expected the government who made the strict rules to be just as stringent and set an example by following them rigidly ?
You are correct : you have no idea

The queen certainly did and even declined BJs toadying offer to relax the rules just for her
She knew that it was not the done thing

She showed how you lead by example and showed stoic resolution
Boris and the gang showed how you ignore the rules
Fail to apply them and flagrantly disregard the sacrifices of the public

Yet he still has the affront to cling to power

What an utter disgrace