What's Labour's Answer To The Catastrophe That Is Devolution?

[ToraToraTora]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55397201
yep you've guessed it, more devolution. Many many more layers of politicians and officials bloating the public sector, bossing us about at every level. Gawd elp us, that's all we need! As TGL once said, the state should be as small as possible, looks like Steer Calmer has other ideas. Madness?

[jim360]

I don't see why it's that unreasonable to have expected the richer countries to pay more into the EU than the poorer ones. The Rebate ensured that the UK paid less than it should have, if the contributions were judged purely proportionately.

[Khandro]

Very noble of you jim, so you are quite happy that your taxes (if you pay any that is) go firstly to the absurdly overpaid thousands & largely unnecessary bureaucrats in Brussels & allow them to then spend the remainder on whomever & whatever they like?

[Untitled]

"If generations have shed blood for it, it means a great deal. The fact that the question rises your hackles makes me also wonder about you."

Wonder what? I cannot think of anything less British than being so undignified and ungallant as to ask about someones origins purely in order to dismiss their opinions because you can't argue against them sensibly. I care deeply about this country and its values and I do not see any evidence of them in your behaviour - which resembles that of a snivelling cowardly small-minded little bully. If your ancestors did in fact spill blood in the past and you take them seriously then you have embarassed them by attempting to bask in their glory over an internet forum of all things purely in order to try and win points in an argument about politics and belittle someone else. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Khandro]

A pompous long-winded avoidance of my question, and sooo rude!

[Untitled]

oh dear one whole paragraph is too long-winded is it? I suggest you read more.

[ichkeria]

Ich, //Trade deals involve losing control of something in return for something.//

What utter garbage. Trade deals must be beneficial to all involved. What do you expect the EU to lose from a trade deal with the UK?

It’s not garbage, actually, as Jim explained perfectly.
Anyway I agree that this has gone off topic.
I’m all for more devolution as explained earlier. There’s more to it than extra bureaucracy

[naomi24]

Yes, Ich, it is garbage. Any deal the EU agrees will be beneficial to the EU. To suggest otherwise is simply ridiculous. You know that, I know that ... and Jim knows that.

[ichkeria]

It’ll also benefit the UK.
Otherwise why would we be bothering?

[naomi24]

We know that and no one has suggested otherwise. As I said any trade deal benefits all. They do not mean one side losing control of something in return for something, as you claim.

[Untitled]

Trade between countries especially powerful countries always involves political costs - even if it is not explicitly written in the final deals - and it is extremely naive to pretend otherwise. this is especially true when countries which are uneven in power/influence are dealing with one another. Look at the usa and china - both of these countries expect close trade partners to rearrange their economies to their benefit... because they know they can.

[Khandro]

untitled, //oh dear one whole paragraph is too long-winded is it? I suggest you read more.//

A whole paragraph of obfuscating, insulting rubbish is more than enough.
You know what? I'm getting sick of listening to little pip squeaks who neither they or their families have made any contribution to it playing fast & loose with British sovereignty, many of whom are first & second generation immigrants, telling me how unimportant it is.

Do you know how many RAF personnel were killed in WW2?
70,000, Army, 250,000 Navy, 62,000 with many more hundreds of thousands wounded, the majority of them married with children

I don't need any lectures from you on British sovereignty, nor insults for mentioning any them.

[ichkeria]

“ They do not mean one side losing control of something in return for something, as you claim.”
Of course they do.
These talks are not admittedly normal trade talks as it’s more like a “conjoined twins” separation than a marriage. But if you know anything of either (!)

[Untitled]

And i suppose you think every last one of them is beaming down with pride at you for exploiting their memory in order to score points over people on the web. How pathetic and sad. Its not caring if you just exploit them for political gain khandro

[jim360]

I'm not sure how it's possible that someone can have got so far into the discussions on trade deals, and yet not realise that trade deals involve both sides making concessions. Just because there's a net benefit (usually) doesn't undermine this.

[Peter Pedant]

completely irrelevant in the current situation
but what the hell - this is AB

[Khandro]

untitled,

You obviously know nothing nor care for British history - Does the cap fit?

[jim360]

It's also important to stress that ich and I are both referring to what might be called "technical" concessions. "Trade deals place limits on sovereignty" is more or less the only thing we are saying (as far as I can see), and it's clearly undeniable.

In the UK/Japan deal, for example, the UK (and Japan) agreed to ensure that they would maintain competition law to address certain practices (Article 11.3); agreed not to provide state subsidies in certain situations (12.7); agreed to allow the other party to complain about potential breaches (12.6); agreed to establish a Joint Committee with equal representation to oversee implementation (23.1), whose decisions are binding on each country (23.2), along with several specialised committees (23.3); agreed to subject themselves to various UN Regulations on goods (Annexes); and so on. Both sides also agree to drive towards regulatory cooperation and alignment. At least once it's also explicit:

"A Party shall, wherever practicable, defer to the regulatory and supervisory frameworks of the other Party." (Annex 8-A(9), emphasis added).

It's also notable that, at various points, the Trade Deal states that each side shall notify the other of various issues, complaints, etc "in English", so that Japan has conceded the point that English shall be the primary language of communication. It's a small concession, but it's still a concession on their part. Imagine if we'd been forced to communicate only in Japanese. I don't expect the Japanese mind all that much, mind (it's probably easier for them too!).

Anyhow, the UK/Japan Trade Deal runs to around 1000 pages. It's an agreement to work together. If you work together then you are ceding at least some level of sovereignty, clearly, because that means allowing the other nation to have some say and some influence in the decisions you make.

[Untitled]

Khandro

As I expected... like all bullies you can dish it out but you cant take it.

[Khandro]

untitled:
One simple question: How British are you?

[Untitled]

Not that its any of your beeswax khandro but i am british and proud to be so... so were my parents, so were their parents, and so were their parents. So your nasty bully boy tactics aren't going to work here.