Make Me P M Or I'll Sqweam And Sqweam And Sqweam.......

[ToraToraTora]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/17/corbyn-labour-no-deal-brexit-mps-flirting-with-disaster
After even Collaborator Oliver Letwin declared he'd rather no deal than let Agent Cob into No 10, is Jezza getting desparate?

[dannyk13]

Remainers are accusing Boris of wanting a no deal Brexit, yet he is visiting France and Germany trying to get them to re-open negotiations.

[jim360]

Sure, but he's trying to re-open negotiations with an insistence that the EU make concessions that Ireland, let alone the rest of the EU, are not willing to give. Under those circumstances, even if Johnson doesn't claim to want a No-Deal exit, that is clearly the course he has set us on.

[dannyk13]

JIm, as I said Remainers are accusing Boris of wanting a no deal Brexit.

[jim360]

Then Johnson should take sensible action to exclude its ever happening. It's not functioning as a bargaining chip -- never has, never will.

[dannyk13]

In your opinion, as a Remainer.

[jim360]

Well, quite. But also what evidence do you have so far that it's working? The amount of time left before October 31st is already not enough to renegotiate a fresh Withdrawal Agreement, ratify it on both sides, draft and pass the necessary legislation, etc. Has the EU budged? No. Will it? Also no. The entire game being played by Johnson and the die-hard Brexiters is doomed to failure. The only thing they have left is to pretend that it's everybody else's fault.

[davebro]

Folks talk of no deal as if that's the end of it. No doubt after a no deal exit talks would (have to) take place to settle our new arrangements with the EU so some sort of a deal WILL emerge in time.

[ichkeria]

No Deal indeed is not a bargaining chip: or at least not an effective one.

How anyone could think it is is beyond me. It’s not that sort of deal.

Even if the EU did agree to reopen negotiations it would need a further extension of Article 50 for them to get anywhere, and parliament would still have to vote. The same parliament. If Johnson asks for that now he is going to look ridiculous. He’s boxed himself in, deliberately or otherwise

[jim360]

"In time" is a long time to allow chaos to reign for no good reason. In practice the UK's negotiating position after No Deal will be even weaker than it is now. No Deal is the only "threat" we have -- so what happens after we've played it? Both sides are materially harmed by the fallout, and the UK will be proportionally hit harder. So we run out of cards to play, crawl back to the table, and are obliged to accept an even worse deal than the current WA, if such a thing were possible.

[dannyk13]

ich/jim, Are all you Remainers doom mongers?

[ichkeria]

We already have proof that the prospect of no deal will not move the EU: twice now we’ve had to ask for an extension. There was never on either occasion the slightest hint that those extensions were being granted anything other than reluctantly.

[ToraToraTora]

jim: "Then Johnson should take sensible action to exclude its ever happening." - you just cannot grasp it can you? The opposition must be convinced we are prepared to leave with no deal for any chance they'll get back to the table. Those Like you and Mrs May insist of tipping our hand and wonder why we get tub cuffed on prime time.

[ichkeria]

For there to be any chance of the EU reopening negotiations they surely need to be convinced that this time they would work!
Look at it from their position: they’ve been at this solidly for two years. They want to move on. Preferably with an agreement but this can’t go on forever.

[jim360]

// You just cannot grasp it can you? The opposition must be convinced we are prepared to leave with no deal for any chance they'll get back to the table. //

I know full well what the argument is. I can also see that it has already failed. It failed before, it will fail again. The EU will not drop the Backstop, which is the chief point on which the UK is currently insisting. The "threat" of No Deal is not going to change that. And if it is carried out then we lose our threat anyway, meaning that when we finally do come back to the table -- as we must -- then we have nothing further to hang over their heads.

[dannyk13]

Yawn

[Old_Geezer]

If you are willing to go with the default option and the other side of the table (if they have any sense) wishes to avoid it, then it can be used as a bargaining chip. Clearly it's an incentive to the other side of the table to act rationally and shift position. Unsure why this isn't obvious.

But that's besides the point. If it achieves that, then that's an additional benefit. But it's main use is making one's position clear, that if the basic needs (red lines) are not agreed upon then we're willing to take the hit and bounce back, rather than be stymied forever by unreasonable demands, and an unreasonable so called "deal".

[ToraToraTora]

jim: "I know full well what the argument is. I can also see that it has already failed. It failed before, it will fail again" - it's never been tried, beyond a twee comment from May et al "no deal is better than a bad deal" which they then collaborated away almost immediately. Why do you say it failed before? we have never said we'll leave with no deal before BJ said it outside No 10 and many times since. All we've had up to now is bunch of hand wringing popinjays wetting their pants over it and giving our hand way to the EUSSR. I don't blame them, they played their hand correctly, we sent a load of vegans to organise a BBQ.

[jim360]

At the moment the simple fact is that "No Deal" isn't a threat to the EU, nor is it even likely to be meant that way. It's aimed inward, instead. "Look at how hard I am trying to get us out," says Johnson. If he's stopped, because Parliament views No Deal as a threat, then he'll call an election. If he succeeds, because Parliament couldn't get its Act together, then the fallout he can blame on the EU's intransigence and/or on Parliament's refusal to back him, and he'll call an election. People like danny, and TTT, and others, will swallow that utter guff wholeheartedly, believing still that it was meant for the EU rather than them.

[Old_Geezer]

It doesn't fail until Halloween comes. And that only occurs if the EU has opted to force it upon everyone.

[dannyk13]

More yawns