This Deal Or No Brexit At All

[-Talbot-]

https://twitter.com/JunckerEU/status/1105238043106181120


When was 'No Deal' taken off the table?



https://twitter.com/SimonPearson961/status/1105241140943568897

[Ellipsis]

> they can't see a future for this country without it being tied to nanny EU

We're well past that, Naomi. We are at "What now?" The referendum was a binary choice, that produced a small majority that kicked off a whole train of events that led to where we are now, but our choices now are not binary and there is not a majority for anything. So, do we go for the largest minority, or what? How is democracy best served?

[naomi24]

Ellipsis, //We're well past that, Naomi.//

With the proposal that tomorrow will see a vote to take ‘No Deal’ off the table completely I think we’re all very well aware of that.

//How is democracy best served?//

Too late to ask that question. Democracy, to what should be the shame of the determined Remainers, hasn’t been served and isn’t likely to be.

[Ellipsis]

> With the proposal that tomorrow will see a vote to take ‘No Deal’ off the table completely

And what about the vote this evening that has taken "Deal" off the table? And, if you take Mrs May at her word, then Remain is off the table too.

So, assuming the vote tomorrow is against "No Deal" and none of the three options remain on the table, how is democracy best served?

* Force one of the three options through
* Another referendum
* Election

Personally, I think the first two options are dangerously divisive, and the last two options depend on the EU granting an extension to Article 50 so it takes the decision out of our hands!

I'm also concerned about what an election could deliver. The parties will run on a platform of Remain, No Deal or Deal and one of the parties will win or we'll get a hung parliament. How does that help? The parties may even run on the same platform, giving the voters no choice at all.

So, assuming tomorrow's vote is against "No Deal", I hope for some true leadership. "Here is what we're doing" from Theresa May, whether that be Deal, No Deal or Remain, and see it through past March 29th. Then she can resign, the Tories can have a leadership election, and at at the next election the parties can run on whatever platform they like from that position.

[jim360]

It's utter nonsense that Democracy hasn't been served. It's just a transparent attempt to undermine any dissent to your position, and nothing more.

[naomi24]

Jim, the majority voted ‘Leave’. You don’t like it but that’s what happened and all your spinning and ducking and diving doesn’t change it.

[Kromovaracun]

Weak.

[Kromovaracun]

This is from Vote Leave's pamphlet, 'Why Vote Leave?'

https://imgur.com/cZR2Hu6

"There is a free trade zone from Iceland to Turkey and the Russian border and we will part of it."

"Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop - we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave."

[naomi24]

These posts from avid Remainers would be amusing if they weren’t so tragic. Had Mrs May’s deal been accepted, Jim would have been jumping for joy insisting that the majority vote rules, and Krom seems to think it’s all about trade. Oh well …..

[Kromovaracun]

That's from Vote Leave, naomi. I'm just saying that the promise of a deal was clearly there in 2016 on the Leave side, so it's not really accurate to claim that the result was entirely in favour of 'no deal.'

[ichkeria]

Not only is it not entirely accurate, it is totally inaccurate

[naomi24]

I know that Krom, but this isn't all about trade deals, is it. This is about reneging on the promise to respect the result of the referendum in order to keep us tied to the EU. You know that and I know that.

[ichkeria]

It’s noticeable that the”leave” position has broadly hardened over the last three years. Boris Johnson for example nearly campaigned to Remain and at one point suggested that a narrow vote to leave should merely be used to put pressure on the EU to give us even more concessions that it already had.

A key reason for that of course is that May placed herself very much on the side of a “ hard Brexit” right from the off. It was only when she became desperate to sell her deal that she started trying to woo others.

[Kromovaracun]

That's because respecting the referendum result isn't really an achievable promise, naomi.

[naomi24]

Krom, //That's because respecting the referendum result isn't really an achievable promise, naomi. //

Of course its achievable - but not when that defeatist, needy, attitude reigns - as it does! The majority of countries in the world work independently of EU regulation and somehow survive.

[ichkeria]

Yes one thing that could and probably should have happened was a rehearsal of leave scenarios in advance with some broad outline of what leaving the EU could mean in practice. But it was a simple “leave” or “remain” choice which was fundamentally meaningless. Even a No deal Brexit will not “free us” from the EU. It’s a 27 nation political and trading bloc on our doorstep.
By December 2020 on the other hand under Mays deal we could have left the EU in an orderly fashion with a measure of goodwill on all sides.
That so many supporters of Brexit chose not to take that option while many remain supporting MPs decided to do so against their instincts will I hope be remembered

[Old_Geezer]

Had meaning for the rest of us.
Impractical to expect every detail to be known in advance.

[Ellipsis]

The referendum set us on a journey. We thought it would get us to a destination but it hasn't, because we have now reached a crossroads on that journey and our so-called "leaders" don't know which way to go.

You can talk about elections and new referendums all you like, but they are not destinations, they are all just potential points on the future journey. There are only a limited number of destinations:

* Remain
* Deal of some sort (e.g. the one that took two years to negotiate)
* No deal

We should have united around the thing we all hate, the deal ...

[jim360]

// Had Mrs May’s deal been accepted, Jim would have been jumping for joy insisting that the majority vote rules... //

Have you ever listened to a word I've said about May's Deal?! I think it would have been a disaster for the UK. Glad it was defeated last night.

I don't expect you to agree with me on this, Naomi, but at least try for a change to understand what it is I actually think before you tell me I'm wrong.

[naomi24]

Jim, you flounder around and spin so much it’s difficult to ascertain what it is you do want – other than to thwart the result of the referendum. The point is you claim that result shouldn’t be accepted. If, however, parliament voted by even a narrow margin for a deal you found acceptable, you would argue it binding because it suits you to.

[Kromovaracun]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem